DC Idea -- What do you think?

Sean Wright

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902
Location
WNY, Buffalo Area
I know that 2 of the big concerns with DC is the filters - not catching fine dust and not having enough surface area to be effieceint.

So I was thinking, what if we just remove the filter? :eek: Well more specifically, what about connecting a trash can separator on the out put side of the blower to catch the big stuff, and then vent the remainder of the dust to the outside?

This idea is mostly for low volume home shops. It won't work if you generate mountains of dust.

What do you think?
 

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shawn thats what i plan to do, and have it drop into a trailer to haul off. yeah i will loose some heat but after i get the shop and going it wil be so full of hot air i can afford to loose alittel:D
 
hey ive seen that setup somewhere:rolleyes: :wave: sorry for the spellun "sean"

Larry,

Thats ok, It happens all the time :dunno:


How much heat do you think i would loose from my basement, in the winter? I would put a blast gate in the line going outside, to keep any critters from moving in.:eek: When not in use, would the closed bast gate make much of a difference, heat wise?

My basement tends to be colder, and the previous owners put insulation up between the floor joists, to keep the first floor a bit warmer.
 
it would depend on how much it was runnin and how much air it sucks,, in my case i was running a 2hp and sometimes for a hour or more and could notice the decrese in heat but it didnt take long to recover..was pullun it out of a 4 inch pipe and pushun it threw a 8"
 
Sean, I use a two bag DC (top & bottom bags) and although they are a PITA (especially yesterday when I noticed that I had gone too long and let the top bag get 1/4 full as well. Another mess and story) Anyway back on track...
I had considered exhusting the dusty air outside of my Basement shop as you discribe but began to consider....

Winter time, You will be blowing ??? cubic feet per minute of your already paid for warmed air out into the cold creating a draft that will pull natures cold air through every crevice in your home. If you have gas heat, or water heater, it will pull the fumes back down the flue, because nature will try to keep air pressure equal both inside & outside your happy home. So The heating bills will climb but you won't have to worry as you will all be dead from carbon monoxide poisoning.

In the Summer the same will hold true as your icy AC air will be exhausted and nature will replace the air sneaking in every open pore, with Summer's heated air causing the AC to continuously run consuming all your hard earned money saved by shortcuting the DC problem.

Spring and Fall will be OK as the house needs some fresh air from the smell of rotting bodies consumed by Carbon Monixide back in the winter while you were working in your shop.

Best solution is to do as you suggest, sucking through a seperator and blowing through a filter bag, or spend some bucks and get a pleated filter (my next DC purchase)

Now, If your shop is in a barn and heat or AC is no concern then by all means shoot that suff to the next county, if you will...

I remember back in the day when I was teaching in a school shop... Winter was harsh and the old school had big drafty old metal windows, I would have the students work w/o the DC on and sweep up their mess by hand. (not doing any Planer activities on those cold days) Every time we would get the shops warm and cozy, some idiot would flip on the DC and suck all the pleasure out and the cold winter's chill in through those big old windows. Would take all the next class to warm the place back up.
 
If you do this make sure your shop is closed off from the rest of the basement. I have treid this and did not lose enough heat to worry about. For the end of the pipe, just place a flap that will open by the pressure and close when not in use.
 
If you do this make sure your shop is closed off from the rest of the basement. I have treid this and did not lose enough heat to worry about. For the end of the pipe, just place a flap that will open by the pressure and close when not in use.

Take a look at the number of Cubic Feet of Air the DC moves per minute, That is the amount of air you will be exhausting from your home (doors closed or not) Nature will not allow you to maintain a lower than "Normal" airpressure w/o replacing the air. The biggest concern is not really that you will freeze... The concern is with Gas Water heaters and Gas furnaces, (or oil) will that loss of pressure w/in your house prevent the flue from drawing properly, The result is CO gases filling the void left by the DC. If you use a fireplace or wood stove, the same effect will happen and the smoke will not draw properly. Although this is only while you are using the DC. It is a concern and problem to address. As for minimum heat loss, the loss is there and the returning air is not heated and the furnace must opperate more frequently because of the loss. Although it may not be noticably uncomfortable at the time, it may be more uncomfortable when the utility bill comes.

What I am saying is that these are major concerns when you exhaust air from your home. The DC runs longer and more powerfully than a simple bathroom exhaust or range hood. These things are known to waste energy in winter conditions but we still use them because their usefullness & need overshadow their expense. The DC is a mighty sucker and moves a lot of air and the effect can/will be felt not just at the business end but in the long run. In my earlier post I jested about dead bodies from CO poisoning, but It has been found that even a bathroom fan (in a tight house) can suck CO back down a water heater vent. Not enough to drop dead the occupants but prolonged exposure to CO has ill effects and in the winter when kids are cooped up indoors and depending on how often you use your DC (I do mine daily and long sessions) it can create a hazardous condition.

This is something you need to consider when deciding to go this direction or to opt for other air filtering systems. I know the dust abounds (as SWMBO reminds me almost daily) what seems like a simple solution of blowing it outside won't relieve all the problems, and may create more. I think I would be more concerned with the health of that little assistant you have pictured than the little extra dust.
 
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You might just get away with it Sean, with a coupla ifs.

First is: If you seal off the basement as Al suggested, and be sure to provide a path for outside air to come in. That'll take care of the flue concerns, IF the WH, furnace, or other combusting appliance is not in the basement, or at least not in your well sealed area.

Second is: If you don't mind a little extra heating to keep you comfortable in the shop. The cold draft will be unpleasant (but you won't have to worry about moisture build up in your basement!) and if its an un-heated space it might get quite un-comfortable. The other thing to remember about heating is that the effects of a cold draft will be different depending on your heating method. A cold draft in an area heated with forced hot air will really drive up your bills, since the air is replaced before it can warm the structure and furnishings. A cold draft in an un-heated basement shouldn't be much of a problem for the heated space above. A cold draft in an area heated radiantly should be somewhere in between. The area would be less comfortable feeling, but the effect on the heating bill would be more moderate than the first example.

You're going to have to look at the particulars of the basement/house, and decide if its practical to try out -- bearing CO in mind. If it turns out that your bills go way up, you might then decide to just buy a filter instead.
 
REGROUP

well according to bill simpson i had better regroup, hadnt give the air balance and CO-2 fillin any consideration.. the present shop had so much draft already it didnt appear to bother it:rolleyes: the new one is gonna be tighter:thumb: so i quess i am open to ideas for that :huh: :dunno: here is what i plan on doing and you folks can straighten me out.. running 6" up to connect to the blower then (was gonna shoot it out side) the blower is in the wood storge room along with the planer and air compressor. is there a way to easily get the air balance in the shop part??
 
Like John said, you have to compensate for the air discharge. Control the air intake. Un controled it gets it where it wants it or the easiest passage way. Thus, the Flue is a direct route to a whole bunch of air (fresh or otherwise) . In much the same manner, I have a wood burning fireplace that has a vent to the outside air to feed the fire box... Behind Glass doors the fire rages and it does not draw my home air to burn and go out the flue, I capture the heat with an exchanger box and blow it into my home. (Heatalater is the brand) I designed this when I had the fireplace built in '80, a lot of folks were whinning about fireplaces actually cooling their homes rather than warming, because of the draft, I made a steel manifold that distributes air flow across the front of the fire grate and provide combustion and stop drawing from the room.

Venting the shop area to replace its own air would also solve the problem, Of course there is a heating problem if you are connected to the outside air during use, but it is not drawing from the home and not drawing from the flue. (lesser of two evils type situation) An electric heating source at the air source would solve that problem. Draw the air through a cube type heater would work IF the cubic feet per minute is equal to the cubic feet per minute of the DC. (It would be good to know CFPM of the DC)

I have heard of fellows putting the DC in a closet with filters in a door so that the air is allowed back into the shop but filtered.

Seems like a lot of bother when one could purchase one of those pleated filters for the DC> Expensive but a simple solution. As for the Bag emptying, you still have to do it. Pumping it outside releaves that problem.
 
Hi Sean

Check out my post in the shop tour section,my outlet goes right outside and very little saw dust gets past the cyclone, it goes in the barrel, also very quiet but go behind the shop where the outlet is that"s where the noise is.

I think I get better suction this way with no back pressure, I didn't measure air speed, cfm, and all that stuff all I know is that the thing really SUCKS:thumb:

JEFF:cool:
 
Here is a closer pic. The hose will go into the female end of a connection, I sprayed pure silicone inside for lube, then push the hose in with a screwdriver pushing on the wire ( it will go in ) then I put 2 screws in so they go behind the wire, I don't even know if I needed the screws.


shop048.jpg



shop008.jpg



Any more questions feel free to ask:thumb:

JEFF:cool:
 
Here is a closer pic. The hose will go into the female end of a connection, I sprayed pure silicone inside for lube, then push the hose in with a screwdriver pushing on the wire ( it will go in ) then I put 2 screws in so they go behind the wire, I don't even know if I needed the screws.


Any more questions feel free to ask:thumb:

JEFF:cool:

Jeff,

Thanks for the explanation and pictures! :thumb:

What kind of screws are you using? Self Taping Sheet metal screws or wood screws? Also how long 1/2 in, 5/8 in, or 3/4 in?

Do you find the hoses on the floor to get in the way at all?

I have a much, much smaller shop, and was planning on running PVC down behind my one bench and out under the bench using a hose to the TS with a quick disconnect. This way I can get the hose out of my way when I'm not using the TS or when I need to move it around the shop.
 
In my last shop I had the DC outside, sucked the air through the header in the basement (basement shop). I never had an issue with maintaining hear nor any CO2 issue. My DC was of the 2HP variaty(sp?). Maybe the home shop with the smaller DC's such as mine are not an issue, where the industrial DC's might cause problems.
 
Jeff,

Thanks for the explanation and pictures! :thumb:

What kind of screws are you using? Self Taping Sheet metal screws or wood screws? Also how long 1/2 in, 5/8 in, or 3/4 in?

Do you find the hoses on the floor to get in the way at all?

I have a much, much smaller shop, and was planning on running PVC down behind my one bench and out under the bench using a hose to the TS with a quick disconnect. This way I can get the hose out of my way when I'm not using the TS or when I need to move it around the shop.


The screws are self tapping ( the ones with the little drill bit end ) 1\2" I think.


Sometimes the hoses are in the way but the dust collection outweighs that.

My quick disconnects are the PVC fittings-- EXAMPLE

newshop006.jpg


No screws I just pull it off the band saw and stick it on the planer, suction seals it for no air leaks. Also cheaper than the quick disconnects I saw at Woodcraft:D


JEFF;)
 
Thanks for all of the information.:thumb:

As far as exhausting the dust outside, it was just an idea that I was kicking around.

After reading Bill's posts on the subject, it looks like it will potentially cause more problems that what its worth.

The funding is getting closer for a dust collector for my small basement shop. After doing alot of research I'm pretty much sold on the Steel City 1.5 hp DC model 65200.

In my research I looked at Jet, Delta, Penn State, Harbor Freight, and Steel City.

For me 2 factors were important inaddition to the performance specs
-Can I get this locally? - Didn't want to pay shipping on something this heavy.
-Cost - What is the best I can get for what I have to spend?

Due to the cost constraint, I have given up on a filter cartridge (at least for now;) ). This means that I need the best bag filter that I can get within the budget. It also goes with out saying that a cyclone is out of the picture too. :dunno:

Some general requirements: 1100+ CFM, 11+ in water, 1.5+ hp, good filter bag (less than 5 micron), and good warranty.

Off the top, while Penn State meets just about all of the requirements, it is ruled out as I would have to have it shipped to me. :dunno:

Harbor Freight, has a 2hp which is good, and I have a HF store near me, I have serious concerns over the quality. Something about their 90 day warranty makes me hesitate. I feel like when I read that it should have said,"Our warranty is for 90 days or 90 feet from the store, whichever comes first." I know alot of people have them, but HF isn't really known for its quality tools. Not ment to be a bash on the company, just a concern about their warranty.

The Jet DC-1100 is good and I can get it locally, but the filter is a 30 micron.

The Delta 50-850 Dust Collector is good as well and it can be had locally. Again long the lines of the Jet the filter is just ok - 5 micron.

The Steel City meets all of the requirements (1.5 hp, 1200 CFM, 11.1 in water, 1 micron filter (washable), and 5 year warranty). In addition I can get one locally for $319+tax.

I had a chance to see one up close last week. The filter bag isn't like the other ones that are usually provided by manufacturers. It is a felt filter bag. In reading "Woodshop Dust Control" by Sandor Nagyszalanczy, he recomends getting Felt Filters if you are not going to use a cartridge filter. Apparently the felt filters catch the most of all types of material used.

http://www.amazon.com/WOODSHOP-DUST...1-4943067?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1179937543&sr=8-12
 
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