Table saw evolution

Cecil Arnold

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Houston, TX
While sitting here waiting for a "blue norther" to blow through, I started thinking about table saws and how little they have evolved since their invention about 150 years ago. I'm using that date as the time the Shaker lady (can't remember her name) came up with the idea of a circle saw blade, since everything really dates from that. I realize that initially that blade was used to replace the pit saw, but it's still where the whole concept started.

When you really think about it we haven't come very far. Moving the blade to a table, making the table out of cast iron, and adding a fence seem to be evolutionary steps that have produced the Uni Saw and all its imitators. The basic saw, the one that became the Uni, evolved just after the turn of the 20th century. It took a bit longer for it to find its way into the home shop, but then there were not that many home shops until after around 1950.

Quick note--the temp here has gone from about 70* to 44* since I sat down here an hour or so ago.

For the past 50 or so years there has been very little movement in TS evolution. I see part of the reason as the "off shore copy" revolution. That is manufacturers going after markets based on price and cheap labor availability. I think everyone is familiar with this, but you have to ask yourself what could have been had companies like Delta sought alternative approaches rather than attempting to go head to head in a price war.

You have to ask yourself what if Delta (or anyone else) had developed a slider combination, that integrated Saw Stop technology, and other bells and whistles, pattented the bundled technology, and owned the show for the next 18 years or more (they could extend the patten by making timely improvements). When I look at Saw Stop's web site I see they are developing additional products, but most are based on their "one trick pony."

So what do you think. Did Delta et al miss the boat by a failure to innovate, or did they stay with the traditional saw because their customer base would shy away from innovation? When I look at some of the Saw Stop threads from the past I think the latter. When I see how well thought of SS is by people who voted with their $$ I think the former.

Let's keep any discussion civil, even though we all know their are some strong feelings about the subject.
 
I don't know why it is, but over and over, we see innovation come from a new company and not from the existing major players in an industry. I suppose it's just part of Schumpeter's "Creative destruction". There are many examples, but a big one is the auto industry where the Japanese came in with better quality and took significant market share.

I think we'll see the major table saw manufacturers respond to SawStop with innovations of their own soon. I don't know what those innovations will be, but it'll be pretty hard for them to just ignore the threat of SS. They'll have to do something to protect their market share.

Personally, I look forward to a "table saw war". Those of us who buy and use table saws will benefit.

Mike
 
It appears to me that the bulk of inovation of table saws over the last 25 years has happened in Europe. For the most part their saws are safer (e.g. with riving knives) and are easier to use (e.g. with built-in sliders).

Of course, it is in Europe where most of the tool inovations, not just those for table saws, have happened over the last 25 years.
 
this is purely my take on this type of subject so take it for what it's worth. I feel that in every area of retail products change and innovation seem to be more driven by competition that anything. there are companies out their who strive day in and day out to better their products and i am thankful for that. Whether the other companies get caught up in just producing a product to make money or what i am not sure. but i for one love it when someone decides to push the envelope and create better and more innovative products.

i think it would be safer to say that certain companies chose to not improve their versions of the table saw. because when you can buy a saw that has an automatic fence system that moves and sets itself based on numbers you punch in on a key pad. i would have to say there have been many improvements. why some choose not to make these types improvements to their saws is beyond me. granted that example is a little high end. but i was just trying to make a point.

that's my take on it anyway.

chris
 
weeelllll, i think that delta started the downhill slide in the 70`s when they turned into a top heavy company.....they closed up the foundrys that they acquired with the rockwell purchase and started outsourcing their large equipment....first( i think?) to italy by having scmi produce the larger stuff....then being as profits weren`t enough to feed the advertising/management they killed that relationship and outsourced to brazil hence the delts/invicta relationship that may have allready soured?
powermatic on the otherhand kept their foundrys up-n-runnin` in tenn. untill the mid 80`s.....but......had allready begun cheapening their line with tai/chi imports in an attempt to battle price with delta in the 70`s.......wmh took over mid 80`s and promptly shut down US production...
in the mid 70`s to early 80`s time frame another newbie entered the picture with tai/chi goods and a marketing plan grizzly, at first their tools where identical to the discount houses stuff like harbor freight and the traveling circus but their marketing arm was quickly gaining on delta and powermatic as far as getting pricing in the publics eye......
meanwhile across the pond europe was passing rules-n-regulations that made osha look tame.....a few companies jumped into the fracus to build equipment compliant with the new regulations...old ones like martin and altendorf and a new player who had just lost a lucritive contract with delta, scmi......... the rest is pretty much recient history.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
fastforward to today.........delta/powermatic and the other tai/chi marketing arms are struggling to hold a market share......minimal money is being spent on real inovation........they`re all trying to play catch-up to the european market....who by the way has actually grown at a much healthier rate....
so as things sit now....in the saw market there`s two main camps....the european saws and the tai/chi saws.......sawstop chose to crawl in bed with the tai/chi foundrys, neat but not time-tested technology.......what`s next? who knows.........certainly not i.....but i`ll predict a merging of the tai/chi marketers within the next decade, in an attempt to break into both the european market and to try and take back a segment of the lost american market.........will "they" succeed? i doubt it being as well priced old technology has a limited marketplace and from here i see no real r&d comming from any of the tai/chi marketers.......only time will tell.

these have been the observations of an old hillbilly woodbutcher .....so any tai/chi marketers who don`t like what i`ve said please remember it`s only my opinion and it`s worth what you`ve paid for it....tod
 
Wow, you guys really bring more questions up.

Mike, your example of the auto industry is really appropriate. Do you find it interesting that the Japanese took Deming's SQC and made a winner after Detroit rejected the idea? What about the transistor and fax machine. Did we (US companies) fail to have any innovative vision of the product?

Tod and Frank, you seem to represent a wide background group (IBM guy and Hillbilly Woodbutcher) What do you think about the driver for the development of European tools. We see so much resistance to OHSA here, and grouse about Govt. regulations, and yet that is what led (directly or indirectly) to the development of Mini-Max, Robland etc. So in light of what Chris said, is it going to take some new Govt. regulation to drive innovation here, or some guy who just wants to invent a better mouse trap?
 
I think there are two issues at work here...the lack of critical thinking skills of people in general and companies bottom line.

In my industry we are really suffering from the lack of critical thinkers. I can't even compare what my generation learned about solving problems and what is out there today. If you knew what is going on you would be shocked. We figured things out by thinking...nowadays if it's not in writing...it can't be done. Documenting against supidity is more profitable than creating good products.

Then there's the bottom line...profit...which has become greed. Companies are run to make profit...and in general it's not profitable to be innovative...unless it's focused on being less expensive. How many times have you been asked where can something for less not if there is something better? The companies are always trying to make things less expensive attempting to get a piece of the pie.

So if you combine the two problems...you force people to spend all their time making things most people will buy...for cost...not for innovative ideas...because people have no idea what innovation is. Most people don't even know how to open the hood of car anymore...and only worry about how pretty it is or much it costs monthly. My dad used to drool over a nice watch...very few people even know what a nice watch is...and don't care. A 10 dollar piece of junk tells time right? Just look at things like air bags...seltbelts...safety glass...they were a longer time coming because they thought people would balk at the price. The only way they would take it on is if the government forced it on them...then they could blame the government...while making a profit. Safety or innovation is always a compromise with cost.

Sorry...it's a daily discussion where I work...and I think we are in big trouble over it.
 
Interesting subject. I use a 1947 model saw and I pretty well pleased with it. I think the issue is that there is has not been a big problem that needed fixing or improving. Except for kickback maybe.

Now I love the idea of the riving knife. That is one I wish I could adapt to my old saw and would love to see on new ones. Other than that I don't see anything that really needs improving.

Sliding table would nice when I was ripping down 4 x 8 sheets. I don't think I really need one.

Sawstop is great idea but again, I don't think there was a huge problem to start with. It appears to me that table saws just do the job they are meant for very well and relatively safely. Most improvements are driven by need and there just isn't that much that needs improving on the current design.
 
cecil, it`s going to take several things happening to change the american saw market......the sawstop folks have opened up legislators eyes as to the "hazzards" of saws.......knowing how our government works they`ll spew forth some type of legislation in the next few terms that`ll most likely affect small businesses and tool manufacturers......joe in his garage will be unaffected other than his ability to go buy a cheap saw new....as long as the american market is driven by price there will be little or no improvement in quality.....my bet is that out of 100 new tablesaws sold in the usa 90 of them sell for below 1k today.....who but tai/chi importers can or would compete for that market? and what type of innovation can we as consumers honestly expect from a product designed and marketed to meet a price point? in order for there to be any actual innovation in the consumer type saws first the public is going to have to be willing to pay for it......and it seems they are with sawstop....and second business will have to show a profit bringing innovation to market..........with our "wal-mart" mentality in this country i don`t know if the day will come.........tod
 
Interesting thread. I guess one question that must be asked is "what are ways that a company can significantly improve upon basic woodworking functions? And I'll approach it from the home hobbyist perspective since that is what I am! In the final analysis I doubt that there are many new ways to cut/shape/route/sand/finish a piece of wood. We can talk about doing it safer (saw stop, sliders, riving knife, dust collection, guided saw systems)
more accurately (laser setup, higher quality measuring systems) or with new technology (laser cutting, computer controlled systems)

So if a company is going to stay competitive it has to find a way to manufacture an existing non differentiated product more inexpensively (tai chi Tod!) , or up the quality (L-N or Veritas anyone?) All in all, I think these trends to benefit the hobbyists. I picked up a woodworking book written in the early 80s in a used bookstore over the weekend. The "professional" tools cited in the book look like toys compared to the capability that is available to us now at a very reasonable price. I think, for example, that my Grizzly 8" parallelogram jointer is easily equal to its higher priced DJ20 competitor. If Delta doesn't find a way to create added value, the price of its equipment eventually will fall to meet the competition.

It seems to me that some people got all bent out of shape when SawStop tried to get the government to pass a standard requiring the new technology. Well, that is exactly what happened to require the installation of seat belts in cars. The Federal government mandated their installation (along with safety glass, airbags, etc.

Frankly, I"m looking forward to evaluating the new SawStop contractor saw when it goes on the market next spring. If it reduces the risk of using a table saw it is worth it in my opinion. With that and my Festool stuff I think I"ll have a safer workplace.
 
IMHO innovation is alive and well in the United States. Consider the iPod. The design itself is innovative but the business model is even more innovative - people buy music in digital format and download it - no more having to go to a store and buy a set of songs that someone else chose to put on a CD - now you can buy whatever you like. This is innovation that changes an industry.

We forget that 30 years ago none of us had a cell phone. Now, everyone does. GPS allows us to navigate anywhere on the face of the earth. And of course, the Internet itself is a major industry changing innovation.

Someone brought up automobiles and how people don't know how to open the hood any more. Personally, I conside this an advance. In the "old days" cars used to require a ring job every 50K to 60K miles, and might even "throw a rod". Those problems were solved but then the valve guides would wear out at 40K miles. Now that problem is solved. You used to have to change the oil in a car every 3K miles or less. Now, most cars will go 10K to 12K between oil changes. Almost any automobile engine will last several hundred thousand miles today without any major repairs. And if you get in an accident, you're a lot safer in a modern car than you were in any "old days" car. All of this is due to innovation. People don't know how to open a hood because they never have to.

Innovation can also produce lower priced goods, and lower priced goods create a larger market for the product.

I don't know what innovations we'll see on table saws, but I know innovation is possible. SawStop and the European saw manufacturers demonstrate this. I look forward to the next few years - I think we'll begin to see some real advances in table saw design to the advantage of both professional and hobbyist woodworkers.

Mike
 
You have to ask yourself what if Delta (or anyone else) had developed a slider combination, that integrated Saw Stop technology, and other bells and whistles, pattented the bundled technology, and owned the show for the next 18 years or more (they could extend the patten by making timely improvements).
But all of these innovations existed for the past 75 years for the most part, with the exception of the saw stop which is based on modern sensors of such. There were sliders by American companies 75 years ago...Yates-American, Oliver, Tannewitz, to name a few...While those machines were not affordable in their day, they are very affordable on today's market. I don't have a slider, but have an old Yates-American table saw. It will take an 18" blade! I have 16" blades for it. Compare that to a 10" blade, it's quite a difference.

Modern development has allowed as much depth of blade on a 10" as could be had on a 16" blade 75 years ago...so there have been areas that have developed, to give proper credit. This is marginally innovating though, IMO.

Certainly the other aspect is the evolution in bringing the costs of manufacturing down, as of recent by going offshore, even Delta was doing that. But Delta was recentely bringing some of their manufacturing back onshore, so maybe America really does innovate!;) The problem was that to build a machine with a sliding ball bearing table, on a heavy cast iron base, well, it wasn't cheap. Aside from the saw stop weiner trick, there's little that hasn't been innovated on the table saw 75 years ago, unless lighter, stronger parts are "innovating".
 
I think Glenn nailed it with the lack of "critical thinking skills." Sure Apple came up with the IPOD, but Apple is a special case and goes to great lenths to build a corporate culture that encourages thinking out of the box, and they do it again and again.

I'll bet if we sat down, maybe with a couple of cool ones, we could write a book on what a tablesaw ought to do. For starters:

How about a mechanism to help us lift and handle sheet goods (slider helps, but lots more could be done)?

How about a decent micro-adjustable fence instead of 'bump and see where it goes"?

How about decent dust control or a decent blade guard?

How about something that stays flat and doesn't vibrate, but doesn't weight a ton?

How about a saw that can cut both straight lines and curves smoothly?

And how come I feel like John Belushi in one of his old skits where he gets more and more agitated until he falls on the floor behind the desk:doh:

end of rant... now I feel better:wave:
 
Ooooh very interesting...right up my alley. Well a lot of you already about my feelings on the "archaic American Cabinet saw" and how the European slider is the next evolution and then some.

Yes I agree the Sawstop stuff is nice but it still does not solve the issue of completley removing the operator from the danger zone. In some ways it may very well create "sloppy habits" because of the comfort level an operator may feel with it. In my opinion it only puts a bandaid on the problem.

Now the above can be all considered potential safety hazards and for many they really do not mean much. What do you often hear people say, "the most important tool in the shop is your head". They will go on to say that as long as you pay attention you are fine...."look after 20 years of ww'g I still have all of my fingers". So if people like these do not feel it is necessary to change a tool's design, they are often the ones that new woodoworkers talk to for advice....why in the world would they want to change and/or pay more for some "fancy saw"? If there is no percieved desire for a new tool or design by the consumers then why would a manufacturer dump $$ into R&D to develop something new? Their main goal is to make money not "buy the world a coke and teach it to sing in perfect harmony"

In my opinion it all comes back to us the consumers and what we want and what we are willing to pay. I for instance was willing to pay for the European machines I have....was it a sound business decision for such a small and new company? No it was not. After using this equipment for now almost four years would I ever want to go back? Hell no, I can not even look at a Cabinet saw or other normal type of machine. I took a leap of faith, a chance and really stuck my neck out on a limb for future growth....I am not sure how many others would be willing to do the same. When I use my machines I feel much safer because I am far away from the danger area. I am able to do things that I could not do with a table saw safely or just plain would not do. In many ways my work has gotten much better and in others it really has not changed...after all if you cut a piece of wood three inches wide it is still three inches wide no matter how you look at it. The only way for someone to appreciate the beauty, simplicity and ease of use of some these machines is to put one in your shop and use it.....but there is that money thing and that fear of the unknown. If no one takes the chance then the machines do not sell, the companys do not profit and thus do not inovate their products it order to sell more and make more money....a never ending viscious cycle.

Another item to consider is our country has seemed to turn into a service oriented society instead of the manufacturing society it once was. Not many people want to use their hands and many look down upon the people that do. I can not even begin to describe the feeling I got from people as I did work in their homes and do not forget I am an Architect also so I work on both sides of the fence.

I guess I could go on and on but my point is it all comes down to us "WE the people"
 
How about a decent micro-adjustable fence instead of 'bump and see where it goes"?

Yknow it occurs to me that someone could design a fence with a laser(?) or some such built into it that would bounce the beam off the blade and tell you exactly how far the fence is from the fence. Forget using that tape on the railing.

How about decent dust control or a decent blade guard?

Well, many saws do have shrouds (not mine) which I've heard good things about.


other thoughts

- how about a way to make fence rails foldable, or telescoping. 95% of the time I'm probably satisfied with a 24" rip. But sometimes I want 40" -- but the only way to get that now is to buy the saw with long rails.

- Anyway to make it run quieter?
 
I think one reason why the table saw has failed to under go any major advancement is because of how simple the saw is. It only has two axis of movement, and in machinist terms, that is pretty basic.
 
the "things" of which ya`ll speak are available now......digital rip fences are available on quite a few saws as standard, tigerstop offers them as a retrofit for most saws......most european saws and a few older american saws have a "blade flask" that when hooked to even a modest dust collector will contain most of the dust generated by the blade..........riving knifes are not just available on high end european equipment anymore....heck even griz is offering them........
in order to have inovation in the tablesaw market first we must define it.....that`s our job as users of the equipment.....heck there are self feeding saws for both sheetgoods and hardwoods that`ll cut up 2k worth of material faster than i can type this post with 100% duplicatable accuracy.....
what is it that we as woodworkers want from our equipment? and what are we willing to pay to get it? i think that`s a much better question.......tod
 
Tod is right, but I think there is another (at least one) dimension to the question. Many of the things Tod describes could be called "production functionality" in that they address the ability to produce a mass of identical parts in a production shop. The other items (riving knife, "blade flask," sliding table) are more safety items than production enhancements. Somewhere between the basic tool, as Travis says, and production line shop, there has to be a niche for the custom shop/hobbies woodworker. I think this is the area where the manufacturers are "missing the boat" by continuing to produce the same old stuff. I also think the move has started for the custom shops/high end hobbies as evidenced by the equipment in Tod, Paul C., and Chris Barton's shops (MM and Robland). Making a deductive leap, it appears that we want safety, and accuracy/repeatability.

On the safety issue; I taught an intro to OHSA class for a number of years. While I'll admit I "cooked the books" some on the numbers, none of them were inaccurate. The US got involved in the Vietnam war in 1954 (replacing the French with "advisers.") We were there until about 1974-6 and lost 58,300 lives. That war, IMHO, tore the nation apart. In that same 20 year period we lost 190,000 lives in industrial accidents. Even if you re-stack the numbers from say 1962 to 1974 when we lost the greatest number of service men, you still have a loss of 114,000 in industrial accidents. Finally if you use 1964-1969 you have 47,500 industrial losses. My point is that no one seemed to care about the number we were killing in the work place. Then in 1970, along came OHSA. Industrial deaths have been trending down ever since. Unfortunately the regs OHSA came up with for WW have been somewhat less than they could be and didn't apply to hobbies equipment. The formation of the EU and rule making involved, as Tod said, promulgated requirements (worker safety) that make ours look like no regs at all. I wish Ian Barly would check in, but it is my impression that you can't even buy a CS in Europe (kind of an "Unsafe At Any Speed" situation). I don't know if Saw Stop's figures are correct, but IIRC they claim something on the order of 40,000+ TS accidents per year. I know there are some among us who advocate that proper training is the best safety measure (no real argument) however in spite of all the training that goes into any number of pursuits, there are still accidents. I would remind you of the baseball player who recently died in an aircraft accident. He was flying with a flight instructor, in an aircraft that had an emergency parachute system. The only way to have been more safe would have been to stay on the ground!--Enough

I really think that it will be a tai/chi manufacturer who will make the next generation CS, but they will make it for a start up, much like Saw Stop. I don't think, without a new generation of govt. regs., we will see any of the old line companies take the risk involved with innovation.

I probably unintentionally hit a few "hot buttons," so I'm sorry for any hurt feelings, just a point of view.
 
Not many people want to use their hands and many look down upon the people that do. I can not even begin to describe the feeling I got from people as I did work in their homes and do not forget I am an Architect also so I work on both sides of the fence.
I guess I could go on and on but my point is it all comes down to us "WE the people"

Paul,
That is exactly what I was trying to say about opening the hood of a car. (yup that someone was me Mike) Many...if not most...people (or better yet parents and society) believe that innovation is what I call throw away inventions. Yes...IPOD's are cool...I have 2...but what real purpose does it serve besides boost a company/s CEO's bottom line...while the people manufacturing them can't fix them...or even worse buy them. For many it's simply... If it breaks throw it away and buy another one. We can't seem to treat people who are problem solvers as smart...status worthy...without a degree (I'm married to a Ph.D.) unless they do it from behind a desk (Like me now)...which causes the problems we are seeing in all industries that require physical AND mental skills. I just hate it and correct it everytime someone says...he works with his hands. To me it implies "he" isn't smart enough to work otherwise.

I'm living this real life btw...we simply can't find people who want to learn how to solve problems that submarines have. Us old guys are leaving too fast to make up the void. My son who fixes F16's tells me that it's the same within the Air Force...and my wife tells me nurses are being imported because nursing requires critical thinking people who have to also work "with thier hands" and are looked down on as simply someone who does what the "doctor" tells them to do (that is soooo wrong btw). How long before the whole mess falls down around us is anyones guess...but imho we can't continue to push paper money around...and survive as a viable society...let alone a country.

Again...this is all so very close to home I just can't shut up about it.
 
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glenn, unfortunately the sun has to set before it can rise........all things run in cycles. as a country we`re to young to know that.....tod
 
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