Table saw evolution

"I probably unintentionally hit a few "hot buttons," so I'm sorry for any hurt feelings, just a point of view."

Hey Cecil, you sure hit some 'hot buttons", but I don't think anyone was offended - certainly not me. Its a great thread and a lot of good ideas came out of it.

Reading Tod's comments, I suspect a lot of what we pine for (pun intended) already exists in the commercial world, but none of the hobby lobby manufacturers are very interested in bringing it down to their marketplace (most of us). I read somewhere that the DIY business got its start when Mr. DeWalt learned that a lot of the electric drills he made for business were being "borrowed" for home use. Wish somebody up there would get curious again.

BTW, my $450 festool saw has a riving knife.:) Wish my $1,500 Unisaw did.:doh:
 
Yes...IPOD's are cool...I have 2...but what real purpose does it serve besides boost a company/s CEO's bottom line...while the people manufacturing them can't fix them...or even worse buy them. For many it's simply... If it breaks throw it away and buy another one.
Glenn, I certainly understand what you're saying but let me address a couple of things you brought up - those I quoted from your posting.

The iPod by itself is nothing - just a hunk of metal and semiconductors. It's what the iPod enables that's important - music and video. Music and other art forms are important to a society. The iPod is simply the next step from vinyl records, radio, TV, the CD, and the DVD as the means for allowing people to experience art. As such, it does serve a purpose.

Your other point was about repairing consumer electronic equipment - or I suppose the fact that we don't repair it. Repairing electronic equipment is extremely expensive. For most consumer equipment, the cost of the item is not high enough that someone would want to pay the cost of repairs. And the manufacturer is just as likely to give you a new, or returned, item than to pay the cost of repair.

But, again, I don't see this as a problem. We've made such advances in integrating function into semiconductors that many consumer devices only have a few semiconductors inside them. And those semiconductors are likely surface mounted which makes them very difficult to remove and replace.

Additionally, progress is so rapid in the electronics field that most consumer devices only have a lifespan of a year or two. If your cell phone dies (which very few do), you're more likely to buy a new and better cell phone than to want your old one fixed.

People don't repair their consumer electronic items for good reasons - and we should not lament the fact that they make that choice. We should view it as a sign of progress.

Mike
 
mike, not electrical but mechanical,........personally i`ve chosen mechanical devices that i can troubleshoot and repair myself because i can`t afford to pay somebody else to to it for me:eek: .....my vehicles are old but simple, some of my equipment has some fairly complex electronics but i`ve made certain that either i could repair them or bypass them to get function.....lots of "things" in the woodworking industry are intended from design to fail and be replaced not repaired???? i`ve been taught to buy once well and live with my purchase so it`s really hard for me to grasp the pitch-it attitude of todays society.....tod
 
I guess the point I was trying to make, Tod, is that consumers make wise choices (money tends to focus your mind). I certainly think the choices you've made are wise.

Mike
 
thanks mike! i think the consumer woodworking equipment is in the state it`s in `cause folks like me aren`t the average consumer:eek: .......neither good nor bad........just the way it is i guess.....tod
 
We can't seem to treat people who are problem solvers as smart...status worthy...without a degree (I'm married to a Ph.D.) unless they do it from behind a desk (Like me now)...which causes the problems we are seeing in all industries that require physical AND mental skills. I just hate it and correct it everytime someone says...he works with his hands. To me it implies "he" isn't smart enough to work otherwise.

I'm living this real life btw...we simply can't find people who want to learn how to solve problems that submarines have. Us old guys are leaving too fast to make up the void. My son who fixes F16's tells me that it's the same within the Air Force...and my wife tells me nurses are being imported because nursing requires critical thinking people who have to also work "with thier hands" and are looked down on as simply someone who does what the "doctor" tells them to do (that is soooo wrong btw).

Glenn, what I find so amusing about your comments is that as a student of Demming, one of the things he preached was that to solve a problem you need to go to they guy actually doing the work. To use the automotive example, you have the young engineer new to the assembly line who, because of his good salary, implements changes based on his degree and what he learned in the classroom rather than ask they guys on the floor how to do something better. Most guys on an assembly line, IMHO, could contribute a great deal if someone took the time to explain the problem and ask how to improve the situation. Too many people have too much ego (especially those with degrees) to make that kind of effort. This from a guy with a MA who understands that the more you know the more you know you don't know.
 
welllll, since cecil brought this thread up in another post today i went back and reread it........and what kicked me square between the eyes was that true to my prediction the tai/chi producers (green) have started trying to infringe on the european marketplace with a few new offerings geared toward the hobbiest.......a short format slider and a 12" combo, j/p.....gotta wonder which importer/advertiser is going to come out with the tai/chi market share? with the advent of the internet and the borgs it seems from here in the sticks that there`s just not enough market share for all the different colors comming from the same factories.......wonder which set of suits will be marketing woodworking tools from tai/chi in the next decade? i`ll bet that the delta/powermatic/grizzly/sunhill/bridgewood/steel city/ect, ect,......all become at best two companies vying for the hobbiest dollar........whatch`all think?......tod
 
Tod,

Or they may segment the market along quality. As I mentioned in the drill press thread, I was in Sears today and noticed a drill press that was suspiciously like my Steel City, minus the split quill adjustment, some cheaper handles and crummy finish. The castings looked identical, and the pulley system/cover/speed charts were identical except for the logo.

So, same manufacturer, "great stuff" gets SCTW, less than great goes to Craftsman?

Jay
 
Table saws have evolved plenty over the years, Europeans manufacturers have been quite good at building new and innovative designs , and alot of people are willing to pay the premium, The Saw Stop is a major evolution, but like someone else said, its a band aid on a flawed design. The problem is most hobbyist can not justify this type of investment and is stuck with the Asian importers, were all you need is a catchy name and a different paint job to be a machinery company. As long as they are content to copy, I dont think you will see much evolution. just my opinion.
 
And..........it really comes around to what a consumer is willing to spend....If we all had to buy European.....we wouldn't be able to afford it.....If we all had to buy Sawstop at it's current price...a lot of us couldn't afford it.....While company executives will tell you it's market driven.....and it is.....it's also driven by short sided views......Exec's make decisions to make a quick change in profit and market share with little concern about the long term effect......Why....a lot of them are ladder climbers....they can make a decision ....turn a quick huge profit for the company.......and move to the next company receiving huge enormous salaries and benefits.....and they are NOT with company A to be held accountable for the long term effect of their short term/sided decision......

Glenn's right......there's a shortage of people who have technical skills and can think on their feet.....that truly UNDERSTAND how something works....why?........In most cases it doesn't pay as well......
 
Ken

That is the wonder of the free market system, we don't HAVE to by European or LN or Festool or Stanley or PC or ............... we can buy what we want. And as long as there are enough of us willing to buy at the price the manufacturer can make a profit selling, then the products will be available. Conversely, as long as there are those of us who won't buy something because the price is too high or the quality too poor, then it will for the company to change or perish.

I'm not willing to put the entire blame on executives (although I've sat in plenty of board rooms occupied by greedy, short term focused amoral........ oops no politics here, right? :rofl: ) there are a lot of other pressures, including our collective resistance to buy, competitor initiatives, investor pressure for performance, regulation, etc.

Personally, I'm saving my bucks for a SawStop contractor saw, I'm willing to "throw away" the blade if I have a potential untoward incident to save my fingers, and I'm trying not to use my little bench top saw in the interim. The "cost" of buying any other type of saw for me includes the potential for a major ER bill. If the SS helps avoid that, then it will be a cheap purchase.

Jay
 
jay, my question was due to the management heavy corporate structure of the importers....not just one, all of `em.....how many suit-n-tie folks does it take to get a product off the boat and into a delivery truck? sooner or later this type of business has to come to an end. it`s not like any of them are designing rocket ships.....most if not all are peddling time tested designs that have been sourced to the low bidder where ever that may be. to this day none of us are informed which factory produces what table saw.....the lables used to say stuff like mcminnville tenn. or grand rapids mich.now they list country if you`re lucky.
i think it`d be a real eye opener for the american woodworker if they knew which products rolled off the same assembly lines in which countrys...oh-well not likely to happen:eek: tod
 
Tod

Yeah, I know, it does start to get complicated after awhile! I can't begin to imagine the compliance burden that organizations face today. However, given the fact that things are so competitive, most firms don't add staff without a lot of thought.

It sure is simpler working for yourself. When I meet with a Board today it is across the dinner table, talking to LOML and myself!

That being said, complexity seems to breed complexity, and then when things get too bad companies have to bring in some high priced (notice I didn't say overpaid :D :rofl: ) consultants to do an overhead valuation analysis so they can rightsize the place! Then someone will bemoan the fact that the company is laying off people!

But to bring this back to woodworking, if we can share honest opinions about the quality/capability/safety of machinery here it will make us all better consumers. If we attract the right level of participation from key decision makers at the companies then we can influence their business practices.

As long as we keep our comments direct and neutral I think we should be OK, but probably we need some lawyers to give us advice on the bounds of what we can or can't say to stay out of court!

Maybe it is splitting hairs but I think that a comment that a machine costs too much doesn't provide enough information for another reader to make an accurate assessment.

But, understanding why a person bought a machine and the context of its use gives me greater guidance. For example, I am REALLY glad I held off and waited until I could afford an 8" jointer -- I might like a 12" but I don't have the room nor do my hobbyist needs justify the expense.

I really value the expertise that you and the other pros who participate here are willing to share with us. You keep us out of trouble and make us better at what we do. Thanks Coach!
Jay
 
Ken

That is the wonder of the free market system, we don't HAVE to by European or LN or Festool or Stanley or PC or ............... we can buy what we want. And as long as there are enough of us willing to buy at the price the manufacturer can make a profit selling, then the products will be available. Conversely, as long as there are those of us who won't buy something because the price is too high or the quality too poor, then it will for the company to change or perish.

I'm not willing to put the entire blame on executives (although I've sat in plenty of board rooms occupied by greedy, short term focused amoral........ oops no politics here, right? :rofl: ) there are a lot of other pressures, including our collective resistance to buy, competitor initiatives, investor pressure for performance, regulation, etc.

Personally, I'm saving my bucks for a SawStop contractor saw, I'm willing to "throw away" the blade if I have a potential untoward incident to save my fingers, and I'm trying not to use my little bench top saw in the interim. The "cost" of buying any other type of saw for me includes the potential for a major ER bill. If the SS helps avoid that, then it will be a cheap purchase.

Jay

jay, my question was due to the management heavy corporate structure of the importers....not just one, all of `em.....how many suit-n-tie folks does it take to get a product off the boat and into a delivery truck? sooner or later this type of business has to come to an end. it`s not like any of them are designing rocket ships.....most if not all are peddling time tested designs that have been sourced to the low bidder where ever that may be. to this day none of us are informed which factory produces what table saw.....the lables used to say stuff like mcminnville tenn. or grand rapids mich.now they list country if you`re lucky.
i think it`d be a real eye opener for the american woodworker if they knew which products rolled off the same assembly lines in which countrys...oh-well not likely to happen:eek: tod



Jay, your talk of greedy directors reminds me of the "nobody knows anything" theory. They are all copying a successful design/item and attempting to do it cheaper/more competitively in order to capture market share.

Tod, you're right too, but I think the next innovation we will see is a Griz copy of one of the combination machines. Imagine the dent in market share they could get by producing a copy of the Rojek (or anyone else's) for 1/3 $$ less
 
Tod, you're right too, but I think the next innovation we will see is a Griz copy of one of the combination machines. Imagine the dent in market share they could get by producing a copy of the Rojek (or anyone else's) for 1/3 $$ less

cecil, the new griz phonebook has a 12" j/p and small format sliders allready....so i`ll bet you`re 100% correct that the "combo-clone" will soon follow......i wouldn`t doubt that the shipping containers are being loaded as we speak....tod
 
I think the real reason there has been little "advancement" in the science of woodworking power tools is because of... us. I think you have to generalize in this case and say that for the most part we are all looking for cost-effective tools but, often confuse that with cheap. Certainly my early days of woodworking were consumed by cheap tools and marginal efforts. The market brings us products we are willing to buy. If we refuse to buy marginal tools then, they wouldn't be made. But, there always seems to be plenty of cars in front of HF store as I drive past...
 
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