opinions or legal advice wanted!!!

larry merlau

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Location
Delton, Michigan
here is what happened 2 weeks ago we the workers of my small shop was told that if there were anymore mistakes made that it would be taken out of our checks,,well monday the pressman printed a job in the wrong color it was ok'd by the supervisor and he signed it being ok the pressman then after runnign the full job noticed that it was done in the wrong color therefore being junk.. well yesterday he got to rerun it on his own time all day. and the supervisor said he had to pay for the paper the supervisor that is... so now for the ? is that legal to make a employee pay with working for free? or charge the supervisor for the paper these rules were handed down by the company owner who of course never makes mistakes noooot! thanks for the replys and (jim delany) i would appreciate your take on this.. thanks
 
LOML's brother had to let a guy go. Really nice guy and tried really hard but just kept making expensive mistakes (custom injection mold manufacture). The guy said he would pay for any future mistakes if he could keep his job. This was checked into and the business' legal-eagle said "no can do", the company would get themselves in hot water if that got out. Second hand in SoCal for what its worth.
 
I'd be surprised if he could be forced to work for free. A suspension or a warning might be legal but I don't think they can do what they did. In NY wages must be payed within a specific time. I would call the department of labor.
 
Not sure how my name got into your post, 'cause I'm sure not an expert on employment law!

My personal take, though, is that it sure should be illegal to make them pay for it - either in time or money. If it were a union shop, I'm absolutely sure he couldn't get away with it.

When I did run an office - in SoCal - several years ago, I did give warnings to my employees, and did fire a couple for non-productivity. Mistakes, though, I attributed to lack of sufficient supervision - MINE! - and I ate the cost, including paying the employees as they re-did the job.

Again, this is my personal take on this, and how I personally handled similar situations. It is not a legal opinion!
 
Larry, the same thing is happins at my place, you know where that is! we are personally responsible for the percentage of rework (makeovers due to employee error) within our company, ie: 30% , for example, error (makeover) equals 30% off of cost of living or raise for the year. Say at that percentage your should recieve a 3% cost of living raise and you are responsiable for 30%0verall company error, you only get 2% raise instead of 3%, 1/3 less than the amount the company may be giving overall! Ya SUCKS! This thought process is intended to raise awareness and help lowering internal/external error at the cost of employees not at the cost of the corporation. Also it does not matter the level of knowledge (expertise) or years of experience (33.5 years at the same company) Ya I have a lot of years here! If I take more complex jobs (of which I do) % of co-workers that take less complex jobs% does not matter! I know more than others but can lose because of taking on more complex jobs than others, more chance of error?

dang, lets talk, I can for hours

Tom
 
Larry, also even if our customers are sent .pdf's (portable document format) files for approval, and they approve them, we are still held accountable for errors, even if they are customers error and we did not notice them!
 
If your pal identified to his superior that the "ink was wrong" and was given the OK to continue... Did he get a written document? If not then it is his word against the other... Guess who looses? Yes, the super wins your buddy looses. AS for who has to pay, Got a union? If not then Pound salt. I are not a Union advocate but there are times when they are useful. Seeems your buddy got screwed (right up the old wazoo) but his fault for doing the job when he knew it was bad... get a write off when you face such a matter... Documents place the blame.
 
"Got a union? If not then Pound salt."

Truer words were never spoken. This is exactly why unions were invented. The practice you describe is certainly not a good one, but it's likely your state board of labor is the only body that can rule on its legality, and they likely can't do much unless one of the workers files a complaint. Course, if someone complains, someone is likely out of a job... another reason unions were invented.

Joe Hill, where are you when we need you?

Thanks,

Bill
 
I am not an attorney but I remember reading a case that had the same issues. I remember the ruling was that a company cannot charge an employee for mistakes, no matter how incompetent the employee is. Their only recourse is to fire the employee or take other disciplinary (or training) actions.

They can use employee performance, including mistakes, when awarding bonuses or raises but cannot take from an employee's existing salary or make the employee work hours for free.

But then there's the issue of keeping your job. If the employee doesn't think s/he can easily get another job, they might have to do what's necessary to keep the one they have. A good thing to do is to keep a careful and accurate record of the unpaid work, or of the salary deductions, along with any proof that unpaid work was done, and present a bill for it if the person is fired or otherwise let go (or even quits).

Mike
 
I am not an attorney but I remember reading a case that had the same issues. I remember the ruling was that a company cannot charge an employee for mistakes, no matter how incompetent the employee is. Their only recourse is to fire the employee or take other disciplinary (or training) actions.

They can use employee performance, including mistakes, when awarding bonuses or raises but cannot take from an employee's existing salary or make the employee work hours for free.

But then there's the issue of keeping your job. If the employee doesn't think s/he can easily get another job, they might have to do what's necessary to keep the one they have. A good thing to do is to keep a careful and accurate record of the unpaid work, or of the salary deductions, along with any proof that unpaid work was done, and present a bill for it if the person is fired or otherwise let go (or even quits).

Mike

I agree. Here in Maine that would never fly. You can send someone home, or use other disciplinary measures, but you cannot make anyone pay for a honest to goodness mistake.

Back in my school days I had a teacher that owned a resteraunt. This one employee unplugged the freezer and forgot to plug it back in, and a whole freezer full of meat was lost. I remember the teacher telling us that the person thought she was going to get fired and came right out and asked him. Are you going to fire me for this. And I remember him saying "It's illegal to fire someone for a mistake. We all make them."

Get a lawyer and look for a new job. Once a competent employment lawyer heres of this, your employer is going to be sued out of existence. Once it hits the papers, your employers reputation is gone too.

The one good thing about employment issues is, labor boards, jury's, courts and judges typically side with the employee because most can relate to the situation.
 
I gotta say, in a strange way I like hearing about these kinds of things because it makes me appreciate my employer so much more. Here is a funny story related to this issue:

About a month ago I was asked to build these engine mounts for two cat engines. These are 1200 hp apeaice so the mounts had to be 100% welded (8 stick passes per weld joint) on 3/4 mild steel plate. Anyway it took me awhile because they have to be perfect, both in appearance and in function. So I take a week or so and build the first set. Well they changed the design after I built them, so I threw them in the dumpster and built another set.

Well on that set the mechanic says the bolt holes don't line up. After some thought I decide its better to build a new set because while there is some serious time involved (about a week per set) this is going on a multi-million dollar boat so it better look good and be perfect. So anyway I get some new patterns, line everything up, program everything and mill and weld out some new mounts.

Well the mechanic says its the same problem, the bolts don't line up. But this time he marks whee they are off and where they need to be. This time I decide I'll just oblong the holes on the manual mill. So after breaking two endmills (at 80 bucks a pop) I get the holes slotted. This time I go down to verify they will line up. And they do, but he thing is, they are in the original hole location and not in the slots I cut.

Well as I am checking the last one the mechanic comes up and points out that I have the brackets upside down. After a brief discussion I find out he was told by his boss to put them upside down. The boss was wrong and that the parts had been right from the beginning. Here I was feeling like a total loser as a machinist and yet they were fine. In fact I had just wasted 3 weeks of work for nothing. So I go back and tell my boss what happened.

He shrugs his shoulders and say "Oh well, what are you going to do about it." That is what I like about where I work. No one says a thing to you about mistakes, and in the end it makes me a better employee. When I notice a mistake, I tell the bosses right off quick so that we can get ideas, people and materials together to fix the mistake. When that happens everyone makes out. In your case only the lawyers are going to come out ahead.
 
Not sure how my name got into your post, 'cause I'm sure not an expert on employment law!

My personal take, though, is that it sure should be illegal to make them pay for it - either in time or money. If it were a union shop, I'm absolutely sure he couldn't get away with it.

the reason your name got mentioned jim is becasue i have read your posts and felt you were a man that had justice and was a straight shooter! something that respect greatly:thumb::thumb:
 
clarification!!

the employee did not notice the mistake tillafter it was ran. the employee did have a signed presssheet from the supervisior. that was why the supervisor paid for the paper and the ink. not sure of how the pressman can verify the loss of pay unless he has a time sheet to prove he was here. thansk for all the help and opinions..i understand union theroy have been involved in one i the past from steward to V.P and have dealt with many issues the needed to be handled differntly from those who deserved what they got to those that didnt....
 
...the reason your name got mentioned jim is becasue i have read your posts and felt you were a man that had justice and was a straight shooter! something that respect greatly:thumb::thumb:

Thank You for the compliment, Larry! I really appreciate that! From other responses, I see my opinion is similar to many/most.

In past employment/careers, I've been on both sides of that fence - worker and boss. My sense of 'justice' - at least in the employment area - was generally developed during the 'employee phase' and thru the influence of a couple very good bosses (and one VERY bad one, but we won't go there). What I later asked of my own employees was simply their attention to detail, and a certain dedication to doing good work.

Training works. So does understanding an compassion, but it really boils down to who's responsible for the results (the product or service) and that is ultimately the boss. As a boss: Supervise without being Draconian; instill a sense of responsibility in every worker, and be open and available to every employee, and above all, BE RESPONSIBLE. One of the tenets of leadership, learned in the USMC, is that "You can delegate authority, but NOT responsibility."
 
Hey Larry. If I understood correctly, the boss had to pay for the ink and paper but, the press operator had to give his time to correct the mistake, even though the supervisor signed off on the job. Right?

If the press operator was working OFF the clock, he would NOT BEcovered by the employers' insurance, IMHO. If something should have happened to cause injury during that time, the insurance company would have an out and the employer would have wished he had done something different to work out the problem, because every regulatory body known would be looking to get a piece of the action.

Sounds to me that the supervisor is the one that should be taking all the blame here. That's his job. While the ideal is for everyone to work as a team, it sometimes doesn't work that way.

Jim said it very well at the end of his last post.

Karl
 
Mistakes? You mean people actually make mistakes? None in my line of work ever admit to them... Might be the negative consequences...

Though surely there can be negative consequences to admitting a mistake, I am certain, from personal experience, that there are physicians who do make, and admit their mistakes. And often that results in greater trust and rapport with their patients.

We seem to be developing a society of blame. Travis' company has the right model.

Ken
 
We seem to be developing a society of blame. Travis' company has the right model.

They really do, but keep in mind we do build what amounts to multi-million dollar toys. Today I have off because the weather here is terrible. Snow makes the roads dangerous and there is no reason to risk life and limb for a boat that takes three years to build. I mean, what is one more day right?

Anyway awhile ago I was applying some stainless steel trim and broke the bottom banding on this coffee table. The boat was scheduled to go out within a day or two, so rather than give the table back and pretend I never broke it and blame it on someone else, I found the boss ASAP and got it back to the carpentry shop so they could fix it right away. I did that because the environment there is so laid back. No one is going to yell and scream at you, so why not admit to it, and get the issue fixed.

Still I must admit our billing procedures are different then most companies (way more forgiven then a production type place) and sometimes its too laid back. Most people do well because well treated workers means good work output, BUT some slackers tend to take advantage of the company too. Here is a picture of that coffee table after all was said and done.

saloon_1_large.jpg
 
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