The Sawstop

Bill Lantry has a thread below this and I didn't want to hijack it by changing the subject. I am very sympathetic toward his situation.

I was recently in the tool store that I shop at and noticed a Sawstop. What are the reviews on this cab saw? Are they comparable to the Uni Saw and the General? Where are they made? Thanks for any help.

Virtually every review I've seen (from owners, not magazine writers) has been very positive. As I understand things, it's one of the nicest cabinet saws around -- even without the safety features. I haven't heard of anyone who's gone from a Unisaw or General to a Sawstop and regretted it.

If I ever get a chance to set up my dream shop, I suspect it'll have a Sawstop in it. It's also one power tool LOML would be fully behind my purchasing. She's told me she wishes I had "The Hotdog Saw".

That is my understanding too...its a great saw without the feature as its robust and tough...but it does cost a wicked amount of money.

As for the safety feature...I am on the fence about that. Yeah new technology can keep us safe, but to me way too many people depend on it. Just because you have a Saw Stop does not mean you won't get cut or have a kickback...a problem the Sawstop cannot address. Granted your chances are drastically reduced...but still there.

To me the tablesaw is just like a train. Very simple, big and heavy. As long as you stay 4 feet away from the tracks you will never get hit. Its not like the engineer is steering for you, or in this case the table saw blade steering for your hand. Keep it away and you will never get it sawn off.

Travis is right. Focus on what you are doing. I use the rule: "If you think your fingers might be too close to the blade....they are." For me 'too close' on the table saw is about six inches. My father was a professional woodworker all his life, died at about age 90 with all his fingers. Thinking about it, keeping fingers out of danger was all he ever taught me about woodworking. That's another story.

Rob,

No worries on hijacking. You can find lots of sawstop threads on other forums. People rave about them, they're very nicely made. Yes, they're expensive... which is the only reason I don't have one. But then, just one accident, and you've covered the cost. They are now coming out with a contractor saw version... it's been rumored for a while, but there are whispers that some have shipped. They'll sell a ton of them, even though they'll be twice the price of a normal contractor saw.

Oh, and pay no attention to the old fogeys with their justification mythologies. You always get that kind of argument. "I don't need anti-lock brakes, because I'm careful." "No one should have airbags, they should pay attention to the way they drive." And the best one: "that person deserved to die in that car wreck... he did something stupid, and that's just one way of thinning the herd." What's truly amazing is the vehemence of opposition to new technologies... remember Lee Iococca screaming about airbags? And all sorts of people complaining about them? Now even my lowend pickup has them...

If only they didn't cost so much. If you can't afford one, you should be thinking, like I am, about some festool or similar portable saw. People love them the way others love their sawstops. Won't get rid of your need for a tablesaw, but it's way safer in some situations...

One accident, just one, and my shop closes forever. Think about that one for a minute... And then there's this: 50,000 table saw accidents a year. 50,000. The reason there's a mythology of care is because these machines are inherently dangerous. Ever done something careless, and then turned off the saw and cursed yourself for doing something so stupid? I promise you, I do that at least once a week...

Thanks,

Bill

Bill, I won't/can't argue against your points. But still, whatever the pursuit, woodworking, driving, handling guns, etc. the best safety control is always the person handling the item. Time come when I can upgrade to a good tablesaw, the Sawstop will be one given consideration.

Oh, and pay no attention to the old fogeys with their justification mythologies.

So why you got to pick on us old fogeys? Oh yeah, that's right, you are one of us so you're allowed.

Only problem I ever had with Sawstop was their attempt at legislation a few years ago to mandate their product be installed on all tablesaws. Time will tell and the market at some point may demand the installation of their product or a similar one on table saws. Heck, litigation may require it before the market gets there.

Look at true riving knives on tablesaws. A much better system than the splitters included on saws in the U.S., and up till recently there was only one American market saw that came with a riving knife. Because they pretty much require re-engineering the trunion set-ups on U.S. designed saws, they may never have been made available this side of the big pond. But market demands have resulted in at least two big manufacturers over here including them on new models. At this point, they are the high end models, but they're moving down the market levels already. And now that they are available through a couple manufacturers, the others will have to follow suit to compete.

You got some valid points there Bill, but at the same time with any statistic you can glean whatever information you really want out of it.There is no question table saws cause 50,000 incidents a year, but that does not instantly mean the table saw is the most dangerous saw to have.

My personal feeling is, the radial arm saw or the sliding compound miter saw is just as unsafe...maybe more so because of the multiple axis they can cut on. The table saw has the distinction of causing the most harm merely because its the most popular woodworking tool out there. There are many, many homeowners that have a table saw, and only a table saw around the house for the occasional board to cut. These are the very people that should not be using them without some instruction, and yet they do.

As for the airbags on cars...well that is the scary part. They are on cars and trucks now, but have you seen the prices lately. 32,000 for a pick up? 17,000 for a car...come on. My wifes Toyota Highlander had the seatbelt light flashing the other day...and no one was in it. What was setting it off was Alyson's diaper bag...meaning the seat has a sensor in it that depends on weight. It also has sensors in the seat belt fasteners and other places...just to flash a stupid light at me telling me to put it on. That is a lot of sensors and wiring...and additional overhead costs to build the car for something that really isn't needed. I WEAR ONE ANYWAY BECAUSE ITS COMMON SENSE!

Ultimately these the price of tools will only rise to what the market will bear. The sawstop has a niche market and that's good, but don't impose something on me that's not needed. That was what the inventor of this machine tried to do. He went to every saw maker and tried to peddle his machine. None would bite because of the added cost, so he started making it on his own. Good for him. Still going to the legislature was low. It was not because of safety, it was because he knew his machine would only be a niche machine in a sea of lower priced saws. As you said yourself, you cannot afford one. Neither can I,and he knew that. The only way to level the playing field was to MANDATE sawstop technology. In due time cheaper alternatives will sprout up. I'll buy one then.

Oh I am 100% Mainer; no doubt there.

When I worked in Minnesota (Hamel) I used to get picked on a lot.They called me "Pilgrim" as a nickname. Anyway they would plague me and plague me,saying "come on Pilgrim, say it." After awhile I would break down and say what they wanted me to.

"Alright, I got in my cah, drove around the cornah, went into a bah, and got myself a beah. Theah, ah you happy now?"

Translation: "alright, I got in my car,went around the corner, went into a bar and got myself a beer. There are you happy now."

They are a funny lot aren't they?

I was at a Maine McDonald's when I asked for an extra cup for the baby. The woman behind the counter replied and I said "You're from Minnesota aren't you?" She said "Yeahhow did you know."

The "You bettch ya", gives it away every time!

I have used a Saw Stop cabinet saw and it is a great saw. It is as well made as my General 650 and I prefer the Saw Stop over my General because the Saw Stop has a riving knife (an important safety feature, unlike the sausage detecting device) and better dust collection.

I guess that I am one of the old fogeys that Bill is referring too because I think that the feature the saw was named for as being unimportant except for sales. I don’t like air bags either :soapbox: and regard them as something installed in cars because many people were to stupid and/or too lazy to do up their seat belts.

Yea..... about the Sawstop. We've had two in our shop now for about 6 months. They are excellent, smooth running table saws with an excellent fence system. As far as the safety feature, it is really good for us cause we are a military hobby-shop and get users with all kinds of experience levels, similar to Bill Lantrys scenario. We haven't set one off yet, but when it happens, it will pay off bigtime. As for owning one myself...no. I trust myself. Every kickback or injury I've seen has been from improper use of a tablesaw, or trying to rip crooked or warped wood that should never be atempted on a table saw, thats what a bandsaw and jointer are for. Also, the sawstop has a different cartridge for regular baldes and dados which you must change. I dont like the hassle. And if the cartridge is not replaced just right, the saw won't start...I know, a safety feature. If you have employees, students, or whatnot, it's a no brainer (if you have the cash). But IMHO it's an unnecessary extravagance for a home shop. During my prior life of working with weapons and explosives and jumping out of planes, the saying was "your best safety device is between your ears". Cheers, Barry

Steve Roxberg said:

I may be corrected, but I don't think that Riving knifes are showing up for no reason. I belive that any new tablesaw introduced by legislation or UL approval requires a riving knife. That is why you are seeing them popping up, they are on all the new saws, but the good old UNI won't have one until it is redesigned.

Click to expand...

That could very well be the case, but I'd venture to say that it was not the owner of a new patent who pushed for its inclusion. The riving knife has been around a while on Euro machines and it has been my experience that those who have used them prefer them, although one of their biggest benefits is over ridden by the attachment of the blade gaurd assembly to them as is done on the models coming out with them. With that being the case, they have to be removed for non-through cuts which, in my opinion, was one of the best selling features of them. If you don't have to take it off for non-through cuts, it will stay on the saw. One of the first things I did with my old Ryobi BT3000 was to remove the blade gaurd from the riving knife and cut the knife down to the proper height just below the top edge of the blade. Only time it came off was when I used a dado stack.

Steve Roxberg said:

I may be corrected, but I don't think that Riving knifes are showing up for no reason. I belive that any new tablesaw introduced by legislation or UL approval requires a riving knife. That is why you are seeing them popping up, they are on all the new saws, but the good old UNI won't have one until it is redesigned.

Click to expand...

I think you may be on the right track, but in the wrong part of the world. I think the reason more riving knives are showing up is the European - and maybe Asian - requirements for them. Manufacturers want to sell all over the world, and making a U.S. compliant only model of tool just isn't cost effective any more, so they design for all markets instead.

It's happened to a lot of products. For instance, your U.S. GM (and others) automobile has daytime running lights. There's no U.S. regulation requiring them, but there is in Canada, and Europe - particularly Scandanavia - so GM just makes everything with DRLs.

It's also much of the reason for the 'metrification' of cars and most other products. The rest of the world demands SI (metric) specs in their markets, so manufacturers comply.

Simple manufacturing economics at work.

Hey, folks,

Not sure it settles the issue, but there's a piece on the Taunton blog on this very subject:

http://blogs.taunton.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?webtag=fw-editorsblog&entry=209

Here's a small portion:

"a riving knife showed up on another U.S. cabinet saw, the Powermatic PM2000. The rest of the industry must have been spurred into action, because here is what is happening.

DeWalt, Bosch, and other companies actually formed a consortium, called the Power Tool Institute (PTI), to solve the problem together, with the cooperation of the Underwriters Laboratory. UL finally has mandated riving knives, with a 2008 deadline for new products and a 2010 date for all existing models, according to Jason Feldner, a product manager at Bosch."

Many other interesting points in the article, including sawstop stuff...

Thanks,

Bill

Well I'll say I believe riving knives & the Saw-stop are a wonderful thing.


BUT I still say there are no unsafe tools. A tool any tool not used will not hurt anyone. Now I've seen many unsafe operators.

Kinda like an unloaded gun hanging on the wall it won't hurt anyone. But just let some dummy take it down off the wall & load it................

No I am not against guns or tools. but they don't operate themselves.