Cost for 200 pounds of firewood - Ask travis

Chuck Thoits said:

I think you are off just a little on your wood to oil conversion Travis. I can tell you for sure that last winter i used 600 gallons of propane in my shop. This year I kept it heated to the same temp with 2 cords of wood. That would equate to 300 gallons of propane to one cord of wood.
And you are going to have to start the new thread to enplane how propane is more efficient than oil.

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Are you sure you used 600 gallons? This winter I used 700 gallons of propane to heat my 2100 square foot house, 24/7. (1600 bucks roughly). 600 gallons sounds like a lot of propane for a small shop, or maybe a a little propane for a huge shop? It just sounds like an awful lot of propane.

I stand by my 100 gallons of oil to 1 cord of wood statement. I will even say that when I burned coal, I one ton of coal equaled about 2 cords of wood, for whatever that is worth.

Pete Simmons said:

Travis -

Thanks for the info.

Very interesting and please add more.

I really find the fact that you with 400 acres of wood and a great desire to hear that chain saw hum would use propane to heat your house very interesting.

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Wood heat isn't inexpensive, even when it is "free". For my house it just does not make financial sense.

I use 700 gallons of propane a year to heat my 2100 square foot home.That equates to 1600 bucks a winter at 2.30 a gallon for propane. If I was to heat my house with wood, it would mean I need about six cord of firewood. It would take me about four, 10 hour days to log, pull out, cut up and split and then stack 6 cord of wood, and that is being very conservative. I figure my time is worth at least 30 dollars per hour since I am using my back, my tractor, my saw and my woodsplitter. That is a very conservative number as well. That equals 1200 bucks worth of work.

Now add in 350 bucks a year in added home owners insurance since wood heat would drive up my homeoners insurance, and you are within 50 bucks of what it would cost to use propane. Of course you cannot keep your woodstove running 24/7 ALL winter, so you would need a few gallons of propane just for those really cold nights, or the nights you are away.

Even though my firewood is free, you can easily see where its cheaper for me to buy propane after you do all the math.

But that does not mean I cannot use wood to heat my home. Instead of cutting firewood, I cut tree length wood. This year I cut 20 cord of firewood, selling it green and tree length to a local trucker. I was paid 90 bucks a cord. I average a cord per hour cutting tree length hardwood with my little tractor. So for half the time, (20 hours) I made 1800 dollars which paid for my heat for the whole year...and gave me 200 dollars profit!

The key to logging profitably is reducing the amount of time it takes to process the wood. I can get 175 bucks a cord for firewood all fitted up, but it takes a lot of time and effort to do that. I actually make more money PER HOUR by selling my firewood tree length. I make less money per cord, but since I have an overabundance of trees to cut on my land, this is not an issue. It just does not make sense to me to work harder to make less money.

Now keep in mind, I do not have to cut firewood and sell it. I can cut Spruce, hemlock, Pine, anything. I am not tied down to cutting just hardwood to "heat" my home. I simply take whatever wood I cut and get paid for, and apply it to my propane bill. Since some species of wood is worth more then firewood or hardwood pulp, it would mean I need to cut less cords to equal the 1600 I need to heat my house.

Chuck Thoits said:

I think you are off just a little on your wood to oil conversion Travis. I can tell you for sure that last winter i used 600 gallons of propane in my shop. This year I kept it heated to the same temp with 2 cords of wood. That would equate to 300 gallons of propane to one cord of wood.
And you are going to have to start the new thread to enplane how propane is more efficient than oil.

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I'll just do a condensed version.

Oil has 131,000 btus per gallon, where as propane only has 91,000 btus. On the surface it would seem that propane would be a bad deal right from the start. But because propane is easier to refine, and is pretty much a byproduct of the petroleum industry, its always cheaper then oil. The difference can be quite a bit.

As of Friday, propane here was 2.30 per gallon. Oil was 3.70 per gallon. So now we need to do the math to figure out what each btu is worth in order to compare apples to apples.

Propane: .0025 per btu
Oil: .0028 per btu

Now the difference does not seem like much, but you must keep in mind that oil can only burn at best at 80% flame, due to the sooty nature of burning oil. Propane burns at 95% efficiency. Automatically you have a .0003 difference on the fuel price, and a 15% better effeciency in the amount of heat you are gleaning from your heater. Now throw in cheaper maintenance over the life of the appliance, and cheaper installation costs, and propane is attractive.

Propane also has one other property that oil cannot touch, and that is modulation. That is a fancy name for the amount the burner can be turned up or down. Oil can only be adjusted from 65% burn to 80% burn. Propane on the other hand be be turned from a pilot light (1%) all the way up to 95%. This means that if your heater or boiler only needs to run at 40% effeciency, the burner can adjust the flame so it does not overproduce btus. Oil heat cannot go this low. So what it does is burn, get the room hotter then is what is really needed, then shuts off and lets the room be unheated for awhile, allows it to go below the thermostat set temp, then kicks in again. There is nothing really wrong with this, but you get hot and cold spikes that propane heat does not do. It modulates the flame to keep an even heat.

This modulation is readily apparent in my house and my dads house. I have radiant floor propane and he has radiant floor oil heat. The water in his floor can only drop down to 120º because of the way his burners work. My house on the other hand senses the temp outside, and compensates the water running through my floors to the amount of heat the slab is losing. If its say 23º outside, my water is only heated to 78º. That is all it needs to keep the house warm. If the temp drops, the heat running through my floor goes up. Basically it follows the outside temp and keeps the heat in my house very even. Not only does this increase home comfort, it reduces my fuel bill. I am not heating my water 1º more then what is needed and this saves me money. My dad's house...it can only drop down to 120º so he's spending money heating water higher then what is really needed.

So my dads boiler has a water temp range from 150º to 120º
My boiler has a water temp range from 150º to 70º

There is a lot more to this, but this should kind of explain why propane is the better choice then oil.

Travis that sums it up pretty good. I say you could scrap the new thread.

Robert Mickley said:

why? I'm still trying to figure out how you burned a house down with one.

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Its a common misconception, being isolated from the house, these things can't burn it down. Well that's just not so. In my county alone this year there was 3 houses that outside boilers burned down. Two of those were on the same week, and I know of several more boilers that someday will burn the houses down. Just plain scary installations. In fact, I know if you have Allstate Insurance here in Maine, they will DROP YOUR COVERAGE if you have an outside woodstove.

In any case my fathers house burned down in the summertime when he was burning slabs that came off the sawmill. The boiler was away from the house, but when the electrical connections on the fan short circuited, the sparks landed in the sawdust kicked up from all the chainsawing he was using. That started the ½ cord of slab wood on fire. Being Spruce it was a very fast, hot fire that soon caught his woodshed on fire. That heat radiated to his house which caught his vynal siding on fire. Being a split-level home, in short order he had fire rolling across the attic, and fire going through his garage...in essence fire under and above the living spaces at 3 AM in the morning. They are lucky to get out alive. None of the four kids heard the smoke detectors, but everyone heard the oxy-acetylene tank go off, and that's when they got up and got out. The 5000 sq foot home was a total loss.

Chuck Thoits said:

Travis that sums it up pretty good. I say you could scrap the new thread.

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Its hard to put into words. It took me along time...three times of explaining by the local plumbing supply place, as to why I should heat my house with propane instead of oil. It took even longer for them to convince me that buying a 1600 dollar boiler was far cheaper then using a 300 dollar propane hot water heater to heat my radiant floor, or a on-demand hot water heater. I understand it now.

My new heating system is very complex, and some of the controls I have were not even available 3 years ago. Its amazing how well it works,and how efficiently.

If I sound like a know-it-all, I am not trying to be. I actually enjoy this stuff quite a bit. If it was not for the fact that a heating tech always worked in the cold, or got calls on the weekends and at night, I would actually think about becoming one. Here in Maine it a pretty lucrative occupation.

Pete Simmons said:

Thanks for all the info.

Yes I know there are lots of variables.

Kinda like asking how much does a fat lady weigh...or how big is a small pizza.....Depends on many factors.

I like the about $7 for about 200 pounds of wood.

By The Way - The 200 pounds of wood is about 1,000,000 BTU or about 1 day heating a mid size house in our northern states. Now I know I just introduced another million variables into this but dontcha think if you were sitting in a average house with outside temps about 30 degrees with a nice wood stove - That burning 200 pounds of wood in 24 hours would keep it comfortable inside?

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To actually do this right, they have formulas to figure out just what you are trying to figure out. They are called Degree-Day Charts and are given out by the US Dept of Energy (DOE) for various places.

A degree-day, is the amount of days, and the number of degrees a home has to be heated for a given year. The higher north you are, the colder the temp gets,but also the longer the winter lasts. So Chucks New Hampshire degree days are going to be vastly different then what my degree days are here in Maine. My friend who lives in Caribou,Maine, her's will be vastly different then mine.

The Degree Day Chart is what you are going to need to really do accurate work on your science project here. It will help you keep things comparing apples to apples. You should really do a search on the internet and see if you can find a chart in your area, or talk to a local heating contractor. They use these very charts to calculate what you need for a heating system btu wise for your area.

This has been a very interesting thread.

Travis, you have confirmed what I've known for quite a while, just haven't been able to convey.

So many of the people extolling the use of wood stoves to heat their homes don't take into account the labor involved getting that wood into the stove. If they are cutting and splitting and stacking the wood themselves, they don't consider their time as part of the equation. Why? Is their time not valuable?

Since I retired my time has become very valuable. I would think your time is worth at least $30/hr, with your equipment time added to that. Your estimate of 40 hours to accumulate 6 cords of wood, I would think, to be conservative compared to the average individual. Also, the majority of people don't have their own 400 acres, from which to cultivate trees.

I have an aquaintance that uses a wood stove for everything [heat, water,etc.] in his new home, so he keeps his wood stove going all year. He has 400-500 acres of heavily wooded property that he gathers his wood from. He is only taking downed trees at this time, but that will have to change in the near future. The last I talked to him, about 3 weeks ago, he had already consumed 6 cords of wood. As he said he's going to have a busy summer putting together enough wood to get him through the rest of this year and next winter. Pretty much all his free time will be devoted to gathering wood.

Anyway, at one point a few years ago, I thought about jumping on the wood stove band wagon. After a few minutes of thought and the thought of buying wood [I only have 1 acre with only a few trees] and the time involved in stoking the fire, I opted to keep my natural gas heat. My yearly gas bill is in the $1200/year range. I can live with that, because I don't think a wood stove would be any cheaper and just take a lot more of my time.

Karl

In re-reading my above post I felt I must clarify that I am in no way belittleing or trying to demean anyone that uses wood [or any other alternative means] to provide heat to their homes.

My point was that in MOST cases wood is not really any cheaper to use than fuel oil, propane or natural gas. It is only a shift in how much money comes out of your pocket and what your own time is worth.

Sorry if I offened anyone. It was not intentional.

Karl

Karl Laustrup said:

any other alternative means to provide heat to their homes.

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I love my corn furnace.....

I think when we were heating small one or two room cabins, a wood stove was fine, but a modern day house?

My Mum & Dad had a wood stove in their house for a VERY long time, it was a backup heater, (natural gas is the main one) and they "Enjoyed" it for many years.

My daughters even got to chop wood.........



...... and learned to light the stove too........



.......... so that was good.


This last year, Dad took the stove out, he said that chopping the wood had really REALLY become a chore, each swing of the axe hurt, jarred, so he took the stove out. He is going on 74, so I guess we will cut him some slack

Fuel Costs

Here are the approx amounts and costs of amounts of various fuels that contain 1,000,000 Btu

Now remember contain a million Btu and release as useful are two very different things.

The million Btu comes from a wild guess as to amount of energy to heat your mid size home in a northern climate for 24 hours during the winter.

If anyone knows what a ft3 of natural gas costs or 80 lbs of coal please let me know. Also how does propane fit into this chart?



Natural Gas 1030 Btu/ft3 950 ft3

Fuel Oil (Home Heating Oil) 140,000 Btu/gallon 7 Gallons $25

Gasoline 126,000 Btu/Gallon 8 Gallons $28

Electricity 3412 Btu/kWh 300 kWh $30


Wood 6000 Btu/Pound 160 Pounds $7


Coal 12,000 Btu/Pound 80 pounds

Thanks for the explanation Travis on the OWB burning down your dad's house. My parent's house (our family home) burnt about 3 years ago. Not due to an outside wood burner, but burnt to a total loss also. I am not going to go into an arguement over the OWB but seems that unclean practices wether it is propane, oil, gas or wood it can cause and eventually will cause a fire. Same with shoddy electric. Not saying this is the case, but just stating. Bought the majority of my wood this winter due to health issues (from November on) and spent $800.00 and kept my house at 74 as I hate being cold in my own home.
Seven years ago with a propane furnace, I spent $3,200.00 dollars and had a free standing woodstove in the house! Seven years ago propane was less than a dollar a gallon.

Wow. Being born and raised in South Texas I have never even thought about any of this. I think my yearly heating bill (natural gas) runs about 100 bucks. But this thread was very interesting to read. Appreciate all the detailed information!

Brad

Jonathan Shively said:

Thanks for the explanation Travis on the OWB burning down your dad's house. My parent's house (our family home) burnt about 3 years ago. Not due to an outside wood burner, but burnt to a total loss also. I am not going to go into an arguement over the OWB but seems that unclean practices wether it is propane, oil, gas or wood it can cause and eventually will cause a fire. Same with shoddy electric. Not saying this is the case, but just stating. Bought the majority of my wood this winter due to health issues (from November on) and spent $800.00 and kept my house at 74 as I hate being cold in my own home.
Seven years ago with a propane furnace, I spent $3,200.00 dollars and had a free standing woodstove in the house! Seven years ago propane was less than a dollar a gallon.

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Jon, to be honest with you, the Fire Marshall declared the wiring on the outdoor stove to be the cause of the fire. In reality, I think it was ashes. My Dad's stove did not have a ash pan, so whenever you opened the door, some ashes fell out. We we were not going to argue with the fire marshalls office, but I think the burned wires came from the fire and not the cause of the fire.

Either way, his stove was too close to his house. End of story. How far is far enough...well I guess that depends. People must think like this fire did. Picture your fuel source burning and think about how radiant heat could spread.

You are right in that other sources of heat could burn your house too though. Its just the ODDS of wood heat burning your home, are better. I won't go into that either, but I think burning wood ups the odds.

Brad OKeefe said:

Wow. Being born and raised in South Texas I have never even thought about any of this. I think my yearly heating bill (natural gas) runs about 100 bucks. But this thread was very interesting to read. Appreciate all the detailed information!

Brad

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That's okay, go ahead and gloat. Just keep in mind my house does not even have an air conditioner. Not sure why you would need one when the temp seldom hits 90º. I have seen it hit 100º a time or two though...that is about the time I die. Anything over 90º and I shut down. You can always put on more clothes when its cold, but there are only so many you can take off when its cold.

I was actually thinking about building an underground ice house, and stuffing it full of ice in the winter. In the summer I would run pipes through the ice house and use the cold water to chill my concrete slab...kind of radiant floor cooling. Then I realized that would be an awful lot of work for the two days a year I wished I had AC. That really is not far from the truth. I live on a big hill so opening up the windows cools this place down. Besides Brad, have I mentioned that its still snowing here with more in the forecast for tomorrow? No joke.

Pete Simmons said:

If anyone knows what a ft3 of natural gas costs or 80 lbs of coal please let me know. Also how does propane fit into this chart?



Natural Gas 1030 Btu/ft3 950 ft3

Fuel Oil (Home Heating Oil) 140,000 Btu/gallon 7 Gallons $25

Gasoline 126,000 Btu/Gallon 8 Gallons $28

Electricity 3412 Btu/kWh 300 kWh $30


Wood 6000 Btu/Pound 160 Pounds $7


Coal 12,000 Btu/Pound 80 pounds

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Well you are making price quotes from your area. I know in Iowa they pay about 8.5 cents a kw for electricity. Here in Maine we pay 15 cents with a new 20% increase coming this month. Yeah its high...so for me electric heat is just not considered.

In fact they say I can pay 4 bucks a gallon for propane, and still be cheaper then electric heat. At 2.30 a gallon, I have a long ways to go to catch up with electric heat.

As for your coal question. I loved burning coal, a very intense heat that did not put out much smoke, and burned all night long. Its getting harder to get around here, but coal used to cost me 150 bucks a ton in bulk. In bag form, I could buy 50 pound bags for 6 dollars a bag. (Nut coal, antricite). Since I got rid of my pot bellied stove, I no longer burn wood or coal.

As for your propane question, there are differences between propane and natural gas, but for your purposes here, they are close enough to be comparable.

Oh a few things about coal...

Its hardly a clean alternative fuel, but if you are wondering when we are going to run out, your're great grandchildren 10 times removed will have to worry about that. When I worked for the railroad, I visited Black Thunder Mine in Wright, Wyoming.

As the Plant Manager explained how many trains he loaded a day (7) and how many thousands of tons of coal they shipped every year, I asked him how long he thought the coal seam would last.

"Well the coal rights we have access to runs out in thirty years, but if you are talking about the seam itself, the Powder River Coal Seam runs from here up into Canada. At the present rate this country is using it, we should run out in 350 years."

Now keep in mind, as he said this I watched his plant load a 122 ton coal gondola in 45 seconds. I timed it myself!! Unreal....

Karl Laustrup said:

In re-reading my above post I felt I must clarify that I am in no way belittleing or trying to demean anyone that uses wood [or any other alternative means] to provide heat to their homes.

My point was that in MOST cases wood is not really any cheaper to use than fuel oil, propane or natural gas. It is only a shift in how much money comes out of your pocket and what your own time is worth.

Sorry if I offened anyone. It was not intentional.

Karl

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I don't think you offended anyone Karl. If anyone did, it was probably me.

One thing I have always said and that is "Wood is not inexpensive heat, even when its "free".

That is the truth. As you pointed out, your time is valuable. I was not sure what to put down for a number for my labor, but as you pointed out,I did keep it on the conservative side. I doubt you could rent a wood splitter at 30 bucks an hour, much less a tractor, chainsaw, truck and splitter...and pay for a youngster in the neighborhood to run all of it.

Of course I did not put a financial amount to the comfort that wood heat gives you. I miss it on some days, but other days its nice just to hear the boiler kick on.

With my dads outdoor wood stove, I watched him go from burning 8 or so cords of wood a year to over 18. Granted some were low quality cords, but he was either:

Putting wood into the boiler
Finding wood to feed it
Lugging wood from the woods or sawmill to it

The thing was, I think he liked doing all that. Still he was tethered to it pretty good. Something my dad did not mind, but something my mom hated. When it burned her house down,that was the last straw.

Travis Johnson said:

Just keep in mind my house does not even have an air conditioner.

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That's where my gloat ends. I don't even want to think about my AC bill.