Cut down a tree for the sake of having stock

Nathan Hawkes said:

I don't think its fair to base the opinion on stunted trees on the obviously diseased fir in your page.

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That is exactly my point...this is NOT a diseased tree. Its a White Fir that grew up in a thicket of other firs. For years it was crowded and overgrown with larger and taller Red and Black Spruce trees in the overstory above it. When I was 16 years old, I came in and logged the Spruce out and left the firs. (1990 or so) Suddenly exposed to the light, it grew and the growth rings show that, unfortunately it also reached its maturity and began to die as can bee seen from the rot in the stump. This is what we call Red Heart here. Its common in all the softwood trees, something we have in abundance. I could cut the other trees around it and find the same thing. It does not matter if they are 1 inch in diameter or 10 inches, they will be red hearted.

Red Heart, is kind of interesting as years ago it never mattered how much Red Heart was in your trees destined for making paper. Then the found that it took far more chlorine bleach to bleach the red color out of the paper. For that reason they started giving a premium price for wood without red heart in it. At the end of that year, that paper mill saved itself 5 million dollars in chlorine costs. I can still get rid of trees like this within the paper industry, just not at the Bucksport Mill.

When I was building my house, I grabbed one of my Grandfather's skidders and cut this woodlot harder then its ever been cut. Having serious equipment to get out wood, I used the skidder only in places that were hard to get at, saving the easier stuff for my tractor.

Anyway, one of the hardest places to get was this place called the "Bowl". There is several ways in and out of the bowl, but they are all uphill. Its also so steep and rough that while trying to log it many years ago, my Paternal Grandfather rolled his tractor and never went back.

When I cut the White, Red and Black Spruce trees that were in that bowl, they were an amazing 32 inches in diameter and over 80 feet high...incredible stuff for a Spruce. I stood that Skidder on its rear and tugged its guts out getting those trees up the hill. When I got to the landing I got (2) 16's out of the tree in high grade sawlogs and then put the rest into studwood. (A type of high-grade sawlog/pulp wood).

The incredible thing was, those logs had red heart just about the size of a quarter in the center of the tree. I had literally cut them at just the right time. They were just starting to die.

To this day, that has been the best wood I have ever cut. I mean I have cut bigger trees, and trees that were more valuable per tree, but never such a large area just teeming with such good wood. My Grandfather doubted he would ever see Spruce that size again and this is a guy that has 6 skidders, and 6 or 7 logging trucks. He sees a lot of wood!

I'm under the impression that "red heart" is a fungal infection. There is a similar infection that affects white pines in PA. I took down a couple of 70 footers recently that were leaning over a friend's farm greenhouse that he earns his living by; 1 was 24" the other 28". Not huge by any means for white pine, but decent nonetheless. They were worthless as sawlogs. Both had red and white areas in the heart that to my untrained eye look like a fungal infection. I've seen a lot of fungal cultures in the lab, but not on wood. I sincerely hope that your problem gets better. That sucks for everyone involved! With the pines, you almost would've thought they were beetle tracks, but there were no holes in the wood or in the bark.

Ron Sardo said:

I gather that you just enjoy arguing since you have no room for other ways of thinking. Just because a person earns a living selling wood doesn't make him evil.

There was a show was on PBS a month or two ago, maybe you had the chance to watch it. It was the most balance presentation of the tropical rainforest I've seen to date. Pick up a copy. http://www.shoppbs.org/product/index.jsp?productId=3056868

In this program you will find that slash and burn is really a tiny tiny problem compared the the 60 mile wide swath that is being cut from coast to coast though the rain forest.

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Not only did I not say that he was evil, I resent that you are putting those words in my mouth. What I was suggesting is that ANYONE who is speaking about a controversial subject on which his personal livelihood is based is going to have a skewed perspective on conservation. His income is BASED on rainforest deforestation.

Frank Fusco said:

Nathan, Jim cuts selectively on land he owns. He also harvests from projects such as road building to salvage what would otherwise be lost. He is almost obsessive about documenting the Amazon with photographs. I don't know what it "sounds like" to you and cannot help there. After, literally, scores of e-mail communications with Jim, I can give my assurance that he is a noble person devoted to protecting the eco-system that provides his livelihood. His wife spends a great deal of time and resources rescuing forest animals that have fallen on hard times. I am confident that he would be happy to communicate with you if you contact him. Jim is a member here but seldom visits. Contact him via his business web site:
http://www.exoticwoodworld.com/
BTW, if I sound defensive of him it is because I am. I'm convinced he is one of the good guys. He has personally helped me with a treasure trove of fascinating information about the jungles, lives and lore of the people there for a novel I am writing that is set in the jungles of Peru and Bolivia.
(I now expect the mods to slap my fingers for digressing)

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I'm glad to hear that there are still honest people involved. I stand by my statements made about skewed perspectives, but I am truly glad that a conservation-minded individual is involved in salvage wood. I guess the argument being made is that at least someone will benefit from selling the logs; otherwise they would rot. ALL of my turning wood, and flatwork wood is from salvage logs from storm trees or arborist takedowns.

Nathan Hawkes said:

I'm under the impression that "red heart" is a fungal infection.

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No, we are talking about two different things. What you may call red heart is what we call blue stain, which can really be any color. The sawmills near me go to great lengths to defend themselves against this, but its really only a few short months we have to deal with it, since it is so cold up here most of the time and not condusive to growing mold. Red heart for us is pure rot, but it follows the cycle of life.

Here in Maine we have a lot more mixed forests then down south. That is, a mixture of both hardwood and softwood stands, and of course some overlap. Since most of my county was 90% fields 100 years ago, the natural progression is for an abandoned pasture of tillable field to grow up into softwood first, because their seeds require bare earth in which to germinate. They also grow fast, tall and straight and beat out the slower growing hardwoods in competing for the sunlight.

After awhile however that rapid growth slows down and the hardwoods begin to take over. If no longing occurs, or forest fires or something to churn up the forest floor, since these softwood trees need bare soil to germinate, they die off and the same area becomes a hardwood stand.

Right now my area, and the time line I am in in regards to pastures and trees is where the hardwoods are beginning to dominate. These softwood trees are reaching their maturity, no matter their size (because they are shade tolerant) and are dying off. Hardwoods are coming back with a vengeance as they are next in line for the sunlight. Over the past decade or so, our logging has been reduced so this creates less disturbed soil and less chance for the softwood to regenerate. When we do log though, the cycle starts all over again with the softwood beating out the hardwoods in the race for the sunlight.

If you have seen any of my website at all you have seen time and time again where I have said "we grow a lot of softwood. This is because of our farm which has been a vast and productive farm for years. The majority of our woodlot is quite young in age actually which means the trees are still in the softwood part of the timeline. The the older parts of the woodlot have remained in softwood because of continual selective logging that churns up bare soil which allow softwoods to regenerate.

Here is a picture of what happens when logging disturbs the soil and the softwoods can regenerate. You can see smaller hardwoods in the picture starting out, but the faster growing softwoods are just dominating them.

Similar discussions elsewhere are also, similarly, non-ending. Folks will believe what they want to believe. But, based on my own research and some of what Jim has told me, a few responses:

Hilel said, in part,
"The land quickly erodes and become worthless." Jim has taken countless photographs of clear-cut Amazon land that was used for agricultural purposes then left. Pictures taken over time show that the forest does restore itself.

Nathan said, in part,
"Trees in the rainforest don't always grow where you want them to" True. No tree, anywhere ever grows where you want it to unless it is hand planted. Trees, and most plants, grow indiscriminately because birds, and other animals, around the world all engage in the same activity. They defecate and drop seeds. That is a big part of nature's process for restoring. Not really an issue, IMHO.

Hilel
"If you go to furniture outlets which feature Indonesian or Malaysian mahogany, you will hear them explain that none of their furniture came from the rain forests. It ain't so."
I don't know about the "none" part. But, sadly much of what you say is true. But not for the reasons you attribute them to. There is, massive scale, illegal harvesting and exporting of many woods from South America to points elsewhere. In fact, much of what we may buy labeled as 'whatever' may not actually be that wood. There are scores of similar looking woods that get mislabeled. The illegal exporting is done with the benign assistance of corrupt governments and workers at all levels. Some of these woods are rare. Others highly toxic. And, legal or not, many fine woods from SA do grow very fast. Contrary to what we are accustomed to here in North America some of the hardest woods from SA, according to Jim, "grow like grass".
Another interesting statistic (which I can't attribute off the top of my head at the moment) is that all the harvesting, legal and illegal, in a year from the Amazon region amounts to less than one-fourth of what is harvested from Oregon each year. It ain't as much or as scary as the alarmists would have us believe.
If possible, eliminating the illegal harvesting and trade would probably silence everyone.

OK, I have to jump in here and remind you all of the >> CoC <<..............

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All of you have agreed to abide by these rules, and some of the comments here are really getting close to the line, IMHO, and I am pleased that things have not become an all out flame war, kudos to all on that point.

I think that this subject is just as difficult to discuss as politics or religion, I ask all of you to please think about what you post before you post it, civility is the key here. We all know that a text based communication is, at the best of times, limiting, in understanding the other person's intentions, thoughts and what they are "trying" to say, thus, I ask that everyone please give the other guy/gal the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks much.

Stu

OK, on forum, for me: FINI

amazing! 48 posts from folks who use wood as their medium about how each of us should go about procuring our own materials.........

ya know what? it`s not my place to attempt to tell any of you where to get your wood any more than it`s my place to suggest where you buy your milk....
some of us use 2% and others prefer heavy whipping cream on their cearal......some like genuine mahogany while others like oak.....

so what are ya` making with the wood?

tod evans said:

some like genuine mahogany while others like oak.....

so what are ya` making with the wood?

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Round things....

I will point out an obvious fact about forest regeneration. The jungles of Guatemala grow all over the ruins of the Inca, (or is it Mayan) empire.
I also wish I could have seen the native Chesnut forest of Michigan. It is gone, alas, to imported disease, as are most of the giant elm trees. It looks like we're going to lose our ash trees the same way.
It is difficult to remain emotionless when studying (with our limited intellect) scientific things. I used to think Ohio had about 3 or 5 trees in the whole state because I think I saw that many when going down the I-75 corridor. (If you count on your fingers can you get up to 5, or is it 10) I was amazed to be corrected after traveling through the Eastern half.
I remember when Mt. St. Helens blew her cork. All the bio-experts prognosticated about how it would take many years before the local trout stream would recover. They were amazed to find that mother nature had a quicker time table than they did.
I guess I'll get around to my point. It is really easier to say "I don't really know" when discussing questions about science. We can always make observations about things but even those observations pass through the filter we call a brain. It is (in my opinion) human pride which causes us to dig in our heels and opt for a 'dust up'. Either that or it's $$$. After all, scientists have to be producing something or they look bad. First we hear about the coming "ice age" , now it's "global warming". All kinds of scientists, actors, news people, politicians, teachers, garbage collectors, (sanitation engineers, for you politically sensative types), and the kitchen sink, with emotion driven opinions about what the latest reality is.........For myself I'm willing to say; "I really don't know, but how interesting".

Bring a few beers by and I will gladly elucidate.

Now back to the daily spin.