Screws or Nails

Mike Gabbay

Member
Messages
180
Location
Herndon VA
I'm getting started on my deck. Finally! :thumb: One question I've been kicking around is to use mostly screws for my framing or nails. My county allows for both. What do you guys prefer?

The decking will be all screws.

I have found myself leaning more towards screws since they tend to be easier to place and if needed remove.

If I go with screws I'll be in the market for an impact driver. Recommendations?
 
Mike, every deck I've ever seen made with nails has nails popping up out of the wood all over. Looks bad and is not safe, IMO.

I have a Ryobi 18v impact driver that works real well. It came in a combo set with a drill as well. Had it for 3 years now and have also used it to put in 4" long 1/2 lag screws.
 
I'm sorry but it's not clear to me whether you're referring to the framing or the decking. It it's the decking, I prefer self tapping screws with small heads OR some type of hidden deck fastening system. If you're talking about the framing, I've always used nails with the exception of attaching the ledger (assuming an attached deck) to the house. I guess screws would work for this but would be very time consuming. Frankly, I don't see the benefit.
 
One of the best deals on a great driver...for your decking.

http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-PS20-2-...f=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1212614209&sr=1-22 Look at getting the quick bit/driver set too...
Greg, that driver is nice, but it's not an impact driver. Big difference. I have a Metabo pocket driver similar to the Bosch, but it's not even close to being suitable for installing decking. My Hitachi impact driver, on the other hand, would be great for such a job.

I never could figure out what all the hoopla about impact drivers was all about. Then I got one. Now I understand. :D

Mike, I've never built a deck, but I'd go with screws.
 
I have pounded a ton of nails into decks of all sorts, Also have built a few with screws, both Phillips and square head. and used a nail gun to sink several thousand nails. Results are different with each. Hand pounding of the old days usually resulted in nail heads lifting (or being left behind when the PT wood shrinks as it dries) Phillip Screws is a Pain and constant aggrovation. Square head screws are a great improvement . Rapid fire framing nailer is my first choice because.... (1) Using coated nails the gun set the head just under the surface preventing the wood from shrinking and leaving the head behind and the coating holds them secure, (2) Speed of application which is reflected in less back problems and elbow aching, you can do a whole deck top in one day , all by yourself. (3) Screws are slow and require a lot more work and muscle tension as well as bending over for longer periods and the torque on your neck and back will tell the toll.

As for a great kit, I would opt for the Ryobi tool kit that contains the 18v Driver, Sawsall, circular saw and jig saw (can't figure why they even mess with that dumb light) All the tools you need for a fine looking deck and the ability to add decorative features like ogees on the ends of beams or rafters, cutting out notches and cross laps. holes for rails to pass through the decking, etc. It is a great kit and after 3 years with mine I still marvel on how well it works.

I was building decks when folks thought they were on top of boats and pounding nails by hand back in the 70s Did it for summer employment back in the days of wine and roses. my last creations were for my kids with two for my son and three for my daughter (or 4 if you include that little one on her other house. Several folks have called me and requested I build another deck on their house as they have moved and the contractor's junk was falling down. So I speak with some experience but this is my opinion and I am sure there are others who prefer otherwise.
 
Bill - the decking will be screwed. We are planning on usng Timbertec a composite like Trex. The framing was what I was thinking of using screws for. The thought of reliving my days in construction during high school (30 years ago) was not what I was looking forward to. Sore back wrist and forearm is not fun. So maybe it is time for a good framing nailer....
 
If you are talking specifically about the framing of the deck, you definitely need to take in the factor of shear strength. Screws for framing a deck I have never actually heard of, but then again I'm still kind of young :) But I know screws do not have NEAR the amount of shear strength that a 16d nail would. I would suggest buying a framing gun and have at it.
 
For the deck screws I highly reccomend an impact driver. Even the 18V Ryobi impact driver will do this job - it worked well for Ned's screwing needs at his shop construction project. In fact, sometimes I wonder whether my impact driver and ladder remember who their daddy is... :rofl:

The 4 tool Ryobi kit mentioned earlier
18v Driver, Sawsall, circular saw and jig saw (can't figure why they even mess with that dumb light)
has a drill, not an impact driver - and, as mentioned, you want an impact driver. The drill may not work for some stubborn sections (again, ask Ned, but not when his 21 year old indentured laborer is being supported by said protruding screw "holding" up the planking - "Mark, wait until he is down again before pointing those things out!" :rofl: ) The light is rather useful for power outages and "can't wait until the weekend" auto repair. And for computer upgrading.

I got into the Ryobi ONE+ line some time ago when I was able to pick up a 10 tool set with 2 batteries and charger for $250 at a sale at Home Depot. This was right after we took Zeus (the tan dog) to have his nails trimmed and I was feeling all dejected from his "being flayed alive" noise and needed to buy a tool to make myself feel better. I went planning to get an impact driver (which was one of the ten tools) and walked out with a whole lot more for just a bit more than the cost of a Makita Impact Driver / Drill set. As always, you need to do your own value calculus when planning a tool purchase. I have no complaints about my Ryobi tools. In fact, the light had dropped down from the attic onto the steps leading to the basement (~a 20' fall) and other than the battery popping out, suffered no ill effects.

I recommend a #2 square drive, but then again, I do not have any experience with those newer star shaped Torx head screws. My experience with Torx head is retricted to bolts on my vehicles and they drive me to loud and vociferous consternation. (Hmmm... they're on my Ford, which is like a Lincoln, and while not a hot rod, they certainly have tried to drive me to intemperate behaviour :rofl: )

Assuming that shear srength is related primarily to fastener diameter (I know this is a rather large assumption) what size screw or lag bolt would be needed to equal the sheer strength of a 16d nail? Is there a chart somewhere that gives nail and screw size diameters (grrove-to-groove diameter for screws). For that matter, would getting #8 deck screws with, say a 2" long unthreaded shank provide equivalent shear strength to a 16d nail, since the unthreaded shank is providing the resistance to the shear forces? (This question is independent of the availablity of such screws.)
 
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I don't understand why an impact driver would be needed (wanted?) for setting screws. :huh: Somebody edikate me please.
BTW, the old time nail making companies are almost out of business.
 
Frank, go visit a friend who has the same brand and voltage impact driver and drill. Then drive at least 5 each 2.5" long (or longer) screws using each tool. You'll know which one you want to use for driving in the several hundred screws used for installing a deck.

With the drill, you need to provide a counter-force for the torque generated by driving the screw for the entire procedure. Also, at some point, a drill of a given voltage and brand will fail to drive the screw in all the way. Ned experienced such a failure with his Ryobi 18V drill and a 4" screw - it looked like he could only get one halfway driven.

The impact driver provides short powerful bursts of torque to drive the screw as opposed to the continuous toruqe of the drill. Comparing my Ryobi 18V impact driver to drill, I do not "feel" the torque transferred to my hand by the impact driver but if I am not careful I can wrench my wrist with the drill. DAMHIKT

The impact driver will tend to drive screws in that the drill would fail for. Also, the impact driver is more convenient in hard to reach places, especially when on a ladder, due to the lower amount of "felt" torque transferred to the operator's arm.

I don't consider the impact driver to be technically necessary. However, it does exist for me in that small grey area right between the highest level of "really, really nice to have" and necessary. Pretty much just below making it into the "necessary" category.

Trying the two tools side by side really is the best way to know the difference. I suggest two tools of the same brand and voltage to avoid apples and oranges comparison.

Lastly, an impact driver is a different tool (though I think it works similarly to) a pneumatic impact wrench. However, the same analogy holds true for air tools - your question might well be, why should I buy an impact wrench when I have an air drill that I can use for bolts?
 
I agree with Bill, the "Robertson" drive screws on the decking and a good framing nailer for the framing, rent one if you have to, so quick and easy. Nails shot from a framing nailer will hold a LOT more than hand pounded nails, each nail in a framing nailer is coated with a kind of glue, when the nail is shot into the wood, the glue heats up and melts, and just about as fast it gets hard again and glues the nail in place.

Just try pulling out some nails shot by a framing nailer, takes a LOT more grunt than a hand pounded nail........ DAMHIKT :doh:


PS, for driving screws, an impact driver is the only way to fly, I'd buy a corded one, I'm getting tired of tossing perfectly good tools because the batteries have died, and will not take a charge, the darn batteries are more expensive than buying a new tool! :bang:

A good corded impact driver will serve you for a LONG time.

Cheers!
 
Mark, thanks. That's a good explanation. Since I only recently purchased my DeWalt, it's not likely I'll purchase something else. Besides, no deck building on the horizon for me. I think I have an old corded impact driver under my workbench that belonged to my father. It would be about the same age as me.
 
Bill - the decking will be screwed. We are planning on usng Timbertec a composite like Trex. The framing was what I was thinking of using screws for. The thought of reliving my days in construction during high school (30 years ago) was not what I was looking forward to. Sore back wrist and forearm is not fun. So maybe it is time for a good framing nailer....


In that case I would go with those plastic (Biscuit like gismos where the screw is in the fastener that fits in a biscuit slot in each plank at the joists. Can't think of the name of the product but it is screw hole free and although it may take a few extra hours to complete, there will be no holes or ugly marks to hide. A hidden fastener.

Here is a picture of the fasteners I was talking about
20040401_ASK_TFH_page004img003.jpg
 
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Assuming that shear srength is related primarily to fastener diameter (I know this is a rather large assumption) what size screw or lag bolt would be needed to equal the sheer strength of a 16d nail? Is there a chart somewhere that gives nail and screw size diameters (grrove-to-groove diameter for screws). For that matter, would getting #8 deck screws with, say a 2" long unthreaded shank provide equivalent shear strength to a 16d nail, since the unthreaded shank is providing the resistance to the shear forces? (This question is independent of the availablity of such screws.)

It is not just related to the diameter but also the hardened steel they are made of. As far as a chart showing the difference in shear strengths between nails, screws, and lag bolts I have never seen one. There might be something out there though. But for a large enough screw (or lag bolt) to match the shear strength of some standard framing nails, I'm sure you would have to step it up to using strictly lag bolts to get the strength. And that would probably be a little silly, and time consuming, even with 1/2" impact and socket. They only thing I have seen lagged on some decks is maybe the skirt board that gets nailed to the house itself. As far as all the joists go, some coated 16d's will be much quicker and very suitable. Correct me on this if you know the answer, but I believe one 16d spike can handle somewhere around 1,800lbs of shear force or something crazy like that. Plus, no matter where you live, I'm sure there will be codes that enforce you to use hangers on each joist spanning more than 8' (not sure how big this deck will be)... plus you'll feel much safer that way :)
 
If you are questioning strength of the rafter to legs or Beam to legs or beam to wall or such I would go with Bolts. Nuts & Bolts. I usually nail the structure then go back and drill a hole through the intersecting members and cinch them down with a hardy 1/2" bolt and Nut (with washers) I prefer Hexheds rather than Carrage bolts as once the b\head slips you are done tightening. In a few months as the PT wood dries and shrinks you can go back an recinch down those bolts, leaving a tight seal. I also put a goodly amount of Construction adhesive between intersecting members as it forms a seal keeping out moisture that will eventually rot the members is the joint opens and water gets trapped between. Always error on the side of overkill.
 
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