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larry merlau

larry merlau

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Location
Delton, Michigan
we all have done projects and some were for friends and alot were for family. well there comes a time when we are asked to get something in return from a stranger or not so close friend. so here is a situation. both me and Steve Ash have made a couple of things and we have been asked to do others for some remebursement in the past! we wont go into the past any more than that, but its not all been good or profitable. so here is a project that has been in the past, i have attached 2 pics so you can see what its supposed to look like and i would like to hear your take on how and what to price it at..
chest2 angled smlr.jpg
chest2 frt veiw smlr.jpg


ok here are the specs, 46" wide. 19.5 deep ,19" high to the seat lid flat.
materails are red oak- 30Bf....aromatic Red cedar 30Bf,, one 48"continous hinge..finish and consumabils

the bottom is solid red cedar as is the back and the raised panels, no ply wood anywhere.

so to those who do this for a price on occassion or regulary what would you charge and hw do you go about figuring that cost? thanks and i hope this will give the rst of us a idea of what our endeavors are worth vrs the art vans of this country!!!
 
For family, it is usually free. Often my son reimburses for materials. For others, I would compare commercial built similar stuff then add a premium for the custom part. Don't sell yerself cheap or it will always stay that way.
Edit: Forgot to say: Very fine looking chest. Whoever gets it will be right proud.
 
"the bottom is solid red cedar as is the back and the raised panels, no ply wood anywhere."

Larry,

Are you asking yourself the right questions? How many hours will it take to make it? Don't forget the time it would take to acquire the materials, even if you already have them on hand. How long will finishing take?

And consultation... that's a big one. When Doorlink sings a wedding, it looks like she makes a lot per hour... except it doesn't count the many hours she spends on the phone with the bride (or the bride's mother), the travel time, arranging for the musicians, etc., etc...

And what's the real cost of materials? Again, even if you have them on hand already, what's the real replacement cost? Do you need new tools, accessories (blades, bits, etc.)?

There's an old saying that goes 'If farmers actually had to use real accounting metrics, no farm would turn a profit.' I suspect that's true for woodworkers as well, which may be why things haven't worked out as well as they might have in your previous experience. Maybe you can make this a test... figure out the actual time to make *the whole enchilada*, from conception to delivery, and the actual cost (including the gas to deliver it... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
That is one very nice piece or work Larry :thumb:

Not going to find one of those at Walmart :rofl:

I guess it also depends on your location, I'm sure the Vaughn could get a lot more for work like that in SoCal, then would be paid in areas of the country that are not so upscale. :dunno:

Good luck with it, and do not sell yourself short! :thumb:
 
i guess i am miscommunicating here:dunno: i will try to clear it up some. i am asking you the family from your expeirnces what would the cost be i know what you are sayin bill completly dont enter me in this picture i asking your price for a total stranger.. and why or how you come to that price.:wave:
believe me i know the hidden costs me and steve both do from the past.. but this is to shed light on the real picture like you hinted at with the farmers..
 
Stuart Ablett said:
That is one very nice piece or work Larry :thumb:

Not going to find one of those at Walmart :rofl:

I guess it also depends on your location, I'm sure the Vaughn could get a lot more for work like that in SoCal, then would be paid in areas of the country that are not so upscale. :dunno:

Good luck with it, and do not sell yourself short! :thumb:
Click to expand...

I never said i made it! i am still tryin to figure which end of the hammer to use:D
 
Well, some ballpark figuring, 60 Bft of lumber, say $3 a Bft, is $180, add another $50 for sundries, like finish, the hinge, sawblade sharpening, sandpaper etc, to get to $230, just in round figures for the materials.

I'd then at least double that to $460 for labour, so safe to say, $700 to a complete stranger :dunno: Heck I might just make it $750, seeing as your gas prices went up so much :rolleyes:

Who's turn at bat is it next? :D :wave:
 
Its very difficult to see from the pics but assuming that this is built to "heirloom quality" and is a one off commisioned piece , if you were trying to make a living at it, then I could see a number closer to double what Stu has said - In my market .
 
its all dependant upon the market where its sold.

If you place that piece in a small boutique in lower Manhattan, it might fetch 1800 bucks. (people like names, so it can be called a Steve Ash or Larry Merlau original, if you made it Im talking)
If it was in the Amish section of Lancaster PA,in a furniture outlet, it might fetch 400-600
If its for a cheap friend, it might fetch 350 with alot of poverty crying.
 
allen levine said:
its all dependant upon the market where its sold.

If you place that piece in a small boutique in lower Manhattan, it might fetch 1800 bucks. (people like names, so it can be called a Steve Ash or Larry Merlau original, if you made it Im talking)
If it was in the Amish section of Lancaster PA,in a furniture outlet, it might fetch 400-600
If its for a cheap friend, it might fetch 350 with alot of poverty crying.
Click to expand...

I think Allen has nailed it here.

Maybe talk to some furniture makers/artists in your area for a better take on things...as others said location, location, location can make big differences in prices people are willing to pay versus laugh at. Good luck!
 
Well, if we start with Stu's materials price of $180 for the wood, add in $15 for the hinge we're at $195. Even if you've made one or more of these before, you need to add in a design charge (this is a "one off", right) If you're working from a picture or something, you still gotta figure out the joinery so a couple hours, at least, at $20 per minimum is another $40.

Now, we need a shop rate which includes consumables, depreciation on machines, rent (even if you're working out of your garage), utilities, and an hourly rate for your labor. Now, your labor rate is the big variable. If you're good, then you deserve more per hour because you'll produce more per hour. And that falls into the next step which is determining how many shop hours (less the finish drying time) will go into making the piece. Lets say that you're pretty good and worth $25/hour and can do that piece in 20 hours of solid getting after it. Add in $15 per hour for all that other stuff so we're at a shop rate of $40/hour times 20 hours is $800.

Now we're at that thing costing $995 for you to make. Round that to an even grand. Notice I said it cost you, the business, $1000 to make. If you sell it for that, you break even. But you, the business, need to make a profit and since you are handling the entire marketing chain from manufacturer to delivering it to market to retailer, you deserve the markup that would be gotten at that level. Add 20% for manufacturer markup, so we're at $1200. Now, retailers of furniture get in excess of 100% when they have big sales. So lets have a big sale and quote a price of $2400. The big furniture store at the mall would unabashedly stick a price like that on it and maybe even sell it.

Now, price is a function of supply and demand and in one market it might be a steal at $2400, while in another it may rot on the shelf at $1500. If you can't get an agreed upon price of $1800 then send the buyer packin cause he's trying to sell you short and screw you over.
 
Jerry Palmer said:
Well, if we start with Stu's materials price of $180 for the wood, add in $15 for the hinge we're at $195. Even if you've made one or more of these before, you need to add in a design charge (this is a "one off", right) If you're working from a picture or something, you still gotta figure out the joinery so a couple hours, at least, at $20 per minimum is another $40.

Now, we need a shop rate which includes consumables, depreciation on machines, rent (even if you're working out of your garage), utilities, and an hourly rate for your labor. Now, your labor rate is the big variable. If you're good, then you deserve more per hour because you'll produce more per hour. And that falls into the next step which is determining how many shop hours (less the finish drying time) will go into making the piece. Lets say that you're pretty good and worth $25/hour and can do that piece in 20 hours of solid getting after it. Add in $15 per hour for all that other stuff so we're at a shop rate of $40/hour times 20 hours is $800.

Now we're at that thing costing $995 for you to make. Round that to an even grand. Notice I said it cost you, the business, $1000 to make. If you sell it for that, you break even. But you, the business, need to make a profit and since you are handling the entire marketing chain from manufacturer to delivering it to market to retailer, you deserve the markup that would be gotten at that level. Add 20% for manufacturer markup, so we're at $1200. Now, retailers of furniture get in excess of 100% when they have big sales. So lets have a big sale and quote a price of $2400. The big furniture store at the mall would unabashedly stick a price like that on it and maybe even sell it.

Now, price is a function of supply and demand and in one market it might be a steal at $2400, while in another it may rot on the shelf at $1500. If you can't get an agreed upon price of $1800 then send the buyer packin cause he's trying to sell you short and screw you over.
Click to expand...

this is what i was lookun for ! a defination of how he got there:thumb: now if this is the case we the woodworkers need to educate the others because i was offered $250 for this a year ago and i did SAY NO! the person thought i WAS outa line when i came back with 450. and then i done some thinkun afterwards, and come to the conclusion that was to low considering the situation. thanks to those who replied and STU, thank you, that was just after i figgered out which end of the hammer to use:wave:
 
While I was technically unemployed, I set my rate at $35/hr + materials, which included a 25% markup. Did I factor in all aspects like machine depreciation? No, but it seemed to work for the projects I've done. Remember, these are custom pieces and should be sold as such.
 
the average joe doesnt understand the man hours put into a one piece type of build.
the average person estimates prices on what they see in stores, or see in catalogs, or furniture outlets
Unless the person specifically requested a handmade custom blanket chest, they will never understand the pricing.
It human nature.
 
Larry, I have somewhat the same problem here on a different scale and different type of furniture. I've been trying to show a couple of young guy how to make furniture to see if they can make a living at it. The going labor around here is very cheap in my estimation, they work in the fields for 20 pesos an hour, that's about 2 bucks an hour, and many support families on that labor. My method is to figure exactly the cost of all material, wood, hardware, finish, fasteners (figure in the waste percent on the wood). We've been making 4 or 5 pieces at a time. (kind of semi-production). I then add in the amount of time to make with the going labor rate in this area. I then double the entire costs (including labor) and add 20%, it seems to come out at a reasonable price to sell, and if we run a special we have a 20% reduction sale.
 
Thanks Jerry - I had pretty much typed what you said when I lost it from the screen and didn't have the time to go back through - but what you say is spot on - first step is to work out the lowest possible price to cover cost and go from there.

One off pieces are necessarily more expensive. I make Adirondack chairs. In an average year I sell between 300-500 of them. I ocassionally get a request to make one an inch wider or an inch longer. I tell people no problem but the price will be approx 8-10 times the standard price. That may sound over the top but the extra time involved will be easily 8-10 times the standard because none of my jigs fit, an inch wider here means an inch wider there and so on. Given that cost difference everybody to date has managed without the extra inch.

Most people, most of the time, live in a world which is one step removed from the process of making things. They have little appreciation of what is involved in taking anything from a pile of materials into a functional product. Even those who work in a production environment are often aware only of their own little bit of the process and don't really consider the whole. And most of the things that most people buy are mass produced in their millions and therefore the economics pricing work differently. Larry, you were very right to decline to sell at the way too low price offered but unless you make a conscious effort to find one of the people who is used to paying for one offness you may not sell at all.
 
Ed Nelson said:
While I was technically unemployed, I set my rate at $35/hr + materials, which included a 25% markup. Did I factor in all aspects like machine depreciation? No, but it seemed to work for the projects I've done. Remember, these are custom pieces and should be sold as such.
Click to expand...
ed that is where i was having trouble convincing myslef that what i am doing is worthy of the one of kind status. and in my carpenterin years i knew what and how much this is a differnt ball game

allen levine said:
the average joe doesnt understand the man hours put into a one piece type of build.
the average person estimates prices on what they see in stores, or see in catalogs, or furniture outlets
Unless the person specifically requested a handmade custom blanket chest, they will never understand the pricing.
It human nature.
Click to expand...
so can you or someone give us the family a clue as to how to teach the customer

Gerald Schacht said:
Larry, I have somewhat the same problem here on a different scale and different type of furniture. I've been trying to show a couple of young guy how to make furniture to see if they can make a living at it. The going labor around here is very cheap in my estimation, they work in the fields for 20 pesos an hour, that's about 2 bucks an hour, and many support families on that labor. My method is to figure exactly the cost of all material, wood, hardware, finish, fasteners (figure in the waste percent on the wood). We've been making 4 or 5 pieces at a time. (kind of semi-production). I then add in the amount of time to make with the going labor rate in this area. I then double the entire costs (including labor) and add 20%, it seems to come out at a reasonable price to sell, and if we run a special we have a 20% reduction sale.
Click to expand...
gerald your in differnt boat sorta for the reason your in a area where the dollar is worse than it is where i am at and i am just one, dont have the crew like you do to work with or threw. but i do see the similarites

Ian Barley said:
Thanks Jerry - I had pretty much typed what you said when I lost it from the screen and didn't have the time to go back through - but what you say is spot on - first step is to work out the lowest possible price to cover cost and go from there.

. Larry, you were very right to decline to sell at the way too low price offered but unless you make a conscious effort to find one of the people who is used to paying for one offness you may not sell at all.
Click to expand...

thanks for the reply ian and any tips on findig those people that are lookin for quality and not production, how do we market our selfs or our work to get those people aware. this is for the family's interst not just me. we all know i need to learn how to talk firstor maybe that ws typpe:D
 
larry merlau said:
so can you or someone give us the family a clue as to how to teach the customer
Click to expand...

If I was trying to educate someone (NOT a customer, just a friend) I'd ask them to tell me what they thought was a fair - livable - hourly rate. (the word "livable" in there is supposed to stop folks from suggesting the ludicrous $7/hr typical of a McJob.)

Then I'd point out how many hours go into a custom piece, and invite them to do the math, and then point out, gently, that that does not include wood, other supplies, nor the cost of the tools/shop.

But this is all theoretical, I've never actually had to go this far. I've so far purposely steered my friends away from asking me to build stuff. I always point out how slow I am to do my OWN stuff. :(

However, most of my friends also seem to very quickly realize that you can't make a living off of woodworking if you charge Walmart/Ikea prices.

Educating a customer, now, that's a different matter. I would think that a serious customer would have already figured out some of the prices from visiting other custom places. And a non-serious customer... they're just wasting yer time. :doh:
 
It's one of those things that is always in my mind when someone asks to build something.

I am more comfortable pricing a new home, garage, or home improvement than I am some of my cabinets or furniture.

Some of you remember the Birdseye maple and cherry bookcase I built for my friend.....actual dollars in my pocket for all my work....cutting, assembly,sanding, finish, etc....was about $600.00. I get $30.00 per hour for my home construction business, so I figure I ought to be worth that if I am doing fine furniture.....so that means I got paid for 20 hours worth of work.

Well all of you know I had waaaaay more time than 20 hours. I took it in the shorts and told my friend I would do this just one time.....next time I did anything it would be time and materials. I say I took it in the shorts, but he is a good friend and would do the same for me, but it made me aware to make sure I figure out everything, then add a profit margin and a error margin. If the customer figures it is too much, then I do something else....it isn't being arrogant, it is just what I am going to do to insure I get paid for my work and time.

I just built a simple box 12x15x36 with a piano hinge and two hasps, all made out of ash. Figured I needed $160.00 for it, wife thought it was high, but customer was more than satisfied and wants something else built..... so what one may think is a lot, may really not be.

In short...use your best judgement :huh:and add room for error.:dunno: and hope you did your homework right.:rofl:




Nice looking chest there Larry......where'd ya have it hid last time I was there?
 
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