How on earth do I hold this tool?

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I'm sorry to say it but this shoulder plane is a pain to use.

I haven't been able yet to find a proper way of holding and using it. Unless someone can illuminate me I think I'm going to design one myself and send it to LN.

Honestly each time I have to use it I'm tempted to throw it away.
As far as I've seen it is a copy (or inspired) of old Record or Preston planes so I must assume that it's me the one who is doing it wrong but... I'm not that stupid either so:dunno:

I presume that there must be a way of holding it, if anyone knows it please, please do show it to me.

Many thanks in advance
 

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They're not very intuitive, are they? I've got a little different style, but the positions of the hands remain pretty much the same.

Here's my shoulder plane:

mtsg75.jpg


First, I lay my right hand LOOSELY across the rounded rear, like this:

3494cgj.jpg


Next, I lay my left hand LOOSELY across the raised front "bump", like this:

2uskdjr.jpg


(My right hand was omitted from the picture for clarity; in use I actually leave it there :) )

So - with both hands on the plane, both still lying LOOSELY, it ends up like this:

296lzsi.jpg


It's important to keep both hands loose - these planes don't want to be clenched. There's a little provision for some grip, but that's more for lifting the plane & drawing it rearward than for pushing the plane in use.

Mine's a little more convenient, because I can also hold my right palm directly on the rear end of the plane, still leaving my fingers loose except for lifting it to draw it rearward for another pass.


EDIT: Yes, that IS VINYL flooring. :) :) :)
 
I'm sorry to say I agree with you. I owned a large Record shoulder plane (like the one in the picture) and it just never felt good in my hand - I eventually sold it.

The Lee Valley medium shoulder plane was the complete opposite. It just fit my hand in a very natural way the first time I held it.

I know that's not what you asked but I thought I'd pass along my experience.

Mike
 

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Very helpful. I was using my LV medium shoulder plane today and like Toni, It just felt awkward. Of course it didn't help I was using it on some rather short shouldered tenons in pine.

I was basically just practicing maybe mortise and tenon joints by making some of the 'fancy' kind of sawhorses that seemed to have been in a couple of magazines in the last couple of months.
 
Toni,
I have that plane, and it is a bear to hold onto without causing pain. I've found a two hand hold to be best - left han on the front of the plane, and the web of the thumb of the right hand UNDER the brass handle, with the thumb gripping the left side and the index & middle fingers gripping the right side.

I have medium large sized hands, and this is what works for me.

One good feature of this monster is that it hass good mass, so once moving across a tenon, it goes smoothly and nicely.
 
They're not very intuitive, are they? I've got a little different style, but the positions of the hands remain pretty much the same.

Thanks a lot Tim for taking the time to make this tutorial.
Toni

This might help

There is part #1 on Setup and part 2 on Using.
Thanks a lot Greg, I've just watched them and found that I'm not doing anything wrong.

I'm sorry to say I agree with you. I owned a large Record shoulder plane (like the one in the picture) and it just never felt good in my hand - I eventually sold it.
It is a relief to find out that I'm not the only one...:)

Very helpful. I was using my LV medium shoulder plane today and like Toni, It just felt awkward. Of course it didn't help I was using it on some rather short shouldered tenons in pine.
I was basically just practicing maybe mortise and tenon joints by making some of the 'fancy' kind of sawhorses that seemed to have been in a couple of magazines in the last couple of months.

Another opinion that confirms me that the ergonomics of this plane are not the best ones:(

Toni,
I have that plane, and it is a bear to hold onto without causing pain. I've found a two hand hold to be best - left han on the front of the plane, and the web of the thumb of the right hand UNDER the brass handle, with the thumb gripping the left side and the index & middle fingers gripping the right side.
I have medium large sized hands, and this is what works for me.
One good feature of this monster is that it hass good mass, so once moving across a tenon, it goes smoothly and nicely.

Thanks Jim, mine is only the medium size one. To me the most difficult way of holding them is single handed, specially when working in "not on bench" positions like when you have to deepen a rebate or groove in a door frame.

I've also tried putting the thumb under the brass handle but the rear end of the blade sticking out further than the handle digs into my palm.

If I put my hand on top of the brass handle, the fact of having to have my fingers stretched to hold it and my wrist bent downwards creates such a tension in my forearm and wrist that is really painful to use it.

The only way I've been able to use comfortably to a certain extent is clamping the pieces very low, even under the level of my bench top.

One of these days I have to relax and spend a whole morning making friends with this plane if it wants to, if not well... e-bay is there..:dunno:
 
Toni, sorry for your trouble, but thanks for the review, I do want to get one of these types of planes one day, and now I know I'll be buying the Lee Valley unit:thumb: :D
 
Sorry you've been having these problems with your shoulder plane Toni. But it looks like the guys have you started down the right path.

I thought I'd show what I've been using for a shoulder plane. I picked these up while on a trip to Wenatchee Washington.
 

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Toni I dont have one of these planes yet. Actually the issue that troubled me is exactly what you raised.

I know we have traddition in woodworking but here is a thought Toni. Many of the planes we use even the new ones all date back to a time when ergonomics as a word was probably not well known. The put up and shut up approach to the teaching of apprentices in the woodworking history meant acceptance of what was there. In some cases the likes of LV and LN have enhanced what was with modern abilities, bit like the small block plane that Stu just bought. They went to a lot of effort to do a great deal of industrial design in the creation of those new block planes. For me they went too far.

But i think this series of planes could do with a revamp like happened to the spokeshave. I have two spokeshaves that were handed down. You have to tap the blade which relies on pure wedge friction to get he gap right. Oh yeah if you dont use these on a regular basis like the real Journeyman of history, its more fiddle than its worth. The addition of adjustable blades and thumbscrews to assist and hold position im my mind kept this tool alive.

I would encourage you to use your skills (this one should be easy for you) and redesign the beast. Dont look like there is all that big a difference in either LV or LN as far as ergonomics is concerened and i bet the resurection of Stanley and all the others climbing on the horse of the interest in planes are not doing much better.

Bart makes a good point with his wood specimens, the metal ones dont differ all that much. Just added metal and addressed holding the blade better but the ergononic side still remains.

Go for it Toni but keep it quiet and patent it. Its not out of reach to do some stereo lithography versions of your own design to be able to verify it and then take it to the likes of LV or LN for a royalty based deal.

We see loads of new products in our field of woodworking many of them gimicks or junk. With your fundamental understanding and skill in the craft you could make a substantial contribution here and you have some very experienced wwers here that could field trial it and give you some input.
 
I used mine a bit more today. I notched some 2x4 to fit over the top of some sawhorses by just running the boards back and forth across the table saw. Knocked most of the wood out of the notch with a hammer, and cleand up roughly with a chisel.

Then I used the shoulder plane to clean them up completely.

It grew on me. I did adjust it to take a lighter cut, and I got to the point where it worked pretty well just holding the plane in my right hand right over the brass handle.
 
Toni I dont have one of these planes yet. Actually the issue that troubled me is exactly what you raised.

I know we have traddition in woodworking but here is a thought Toni. Many of the planes we use even the new ones all date back to a time when ergonomics as a word was probably not well known. The put up and shut up approach to the teaching of apprentices in the woodworking history meant acceptance of what was there. In some cases the likes of LV and LN have enhanced what was with modern abilities, bit like the small block plane that Stu just bought. They went to a lot of effort to do a great deal of industrial design in the creation of those new block planes. For me they went too far.

But i think this series of planes could do with a revamp like happened to the spokeshave. I have two spokeshaves that were handed down. You have to tap the blade which relies on pure wedge friction to get he gap right. Oh yeah if you dont use these on a regular basis like the real Journeyman of history, its more fiddle than its worth. The addition of adjustable blades and thumbscrews to assist and hold position im my mind kept this tool alive.

I would encourage you to use your skills (this one should be easy for you) and redesign the beast. Dont look like there is all that big a difference in either LV or LN as far as ergonomics is concerened and i bet the resurection of Stanley and all the others climbing on the horse of the interest in planes are not doing much better.

Bart makes a good point with his wood specimens, the metal ones dont differ all that much. Just added metal and addressed holding the blade better but the ergononic side still remains.

Go for it Toni but keep it quiet and patent it. Its not out of reach to do some stereo lithography versions of your own design to be able to verify it and then take it to the likes of LV or LN for a royalty based deal.

We see loads of new products in our field of woodworking many of them gimicks or junk. With your fundamental understanding and skill in the craft you could make a substantial contribution here and you have some very experienced wwers here that could field trial it and give you some input.

I do not reject that idea at all Rob, in fact I've been toying with it since I got this plane.
I thought I'd show what I've been using for a shoulder plane. I picked these up while on a trip to Wenatchee Washington.
Yeah Bart!, I have the one you see on the pic, it belonged to my dad, and the only difference is the adjusting system and the fact that the blade is skewed, and even being bigger that the LN feels much better in the hand.
All you have to do Toni is to bolt a large handle to it, some padding, and of course a laser guide for good measure.
paulh
Ni kidding Paul ;)but I thought about modelling some sort of insert out of resin or wood that I could put on it to help.:D
 
Actually Toni,
i've got the LV shoulder plane. Between the finger hole in the body and the adjustable knob on top, the ergonomics are completely different than the LN version you're using. I second the vote to try your own hand at it. I like the LV version a lot, but it kind of looks like a prototype - a standard shoulder plane with a hold bored in it and a knob screwed on. They certainly function well, but it seems like the overall design could better reflect the fundamental changes in the tool. I do like their blade adjustment mechanism, as well as the recessed set screws that center the blade, but i'd think you could tune "Tonify" the design - incorporate your sense of restrained elegance and pragmatism and see wherer it goes.
Sounds fun.
paulh
 
Actually Toni,
i've got the LV shoulder plane. Between the finger hole in the body and the adjustable knob on top, the ergonomics are completely different than the LN version you're using. I second the vote to try your own hand at it. I like the LV version a lot, but it kind of looks like a prototype - a standard shoulder plane with a hold bored in it and a knob screwed on. They certainly function well, but it seems like the overall design could better reflect the fundamental changes in the tool. I do like their blade adjustment mechanism, as well as the recessed set screws that center the blade, but i'd think you could tune "Tonify" the design - incorporate your sense of restrained elegance and pragmatism and see wherer it goes.
Sounds fun.
paulh

Hi Paul, I had a thorough look at the LV as well and got the same feeling as you, the screw on right or left front know is a clumsy solution IMHO, the hole on the body another one. To me this would be a first stage design ideas, not a production item, however I must say that we do not know what were the constrains the designer had (if any designer was involved at all).
 
I was lucky enough to get to try the LN and LV side by side at one of the shows. I just couldn't get a reliable grip on the LN but the Veritas fell right into my hand. We are obviously all different and what fits one doesn't always fit another.

LV-Med-Shoulder-Grip-RH-001.jpgLV-Med-Shoulder-Grip-RH-002.jpg

I am sure hand size, finger length and all sorts of things come into play that make it nearly impossible to tell if one is right for you by looking at pictures. Planes are definitely a hands-on item.
 
Tony I am convinced a guy with your industrial design ability and a knowledge of ergonomics and what is required in order to get a plane blade to cut properly could come up with fresh thinking.

It needs someone to go back to first principles and define what is needed and take a completly fresh approach.

Go for it.:):thumb:
 
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