Holes in my walls and floors

Matt Meiser

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470
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Monroe, MI
We are heavy into a bathroom remodel and on Wednesday gutted the room to the subfloor and drywall walls. I had to cut a 2'x2' hole in the wall behind where the vanity will be to do some drain work and cut a 6"x10" hole hole in the subfloor next to where the toilet used to be to get access to cut off the elbow and closet flange and install a cap. There will be a cabinet over this area when we are done. There are also about 6 holes in the floor where supply pipes used to come through that won't be reused.

My question is there a reason I should patch all these holes? The floor holes will get cement board and then tile over them. The hole in the wall will be hidden by the vanity. I'm wondering if it is a fire-spread issue? This is the first floor over a basement with an open ceiling.
 
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what material is the subfloor matt? if it`s particle board or osb you`d be money ahead to remove the entire floor, if it`s 3/4 plywood or advantech then cut any hole larger than 4 square inches out to the joists, scab nailers to the joists and screw nailers to the sheetgoods between the joists and drop in your patch with a liberal slathering of construction adhesive and fasten it in place......before you place your "cement board" read the lable affixed to the sheet, there are nailing patterns that must be adhered to as well as most manufacturers instist on bedding the sheets in thinset for any warrantee to hold.....tod
 
Its thick OSB. It would be a nightmare to replace--not a project I'm willing to tackle. Its not a square room --actually two rooms and we aren't taking out the shower.

Edit: I know what you are saying--about flex. It is a very solid floor.
 
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We are heavy into a bathroom remodel and on Wednesday gutted the room to the subfloor and drywall walls. I had to cut a 2'x2' hole in the wall behind where the vanity will be to do some drain work and cut a 6"x10" hole hole in the subfloor next to where the toilet used to be to get access to cut off the elbow and closet flange and install a cap. There will be a cabinet over this area when we are done. There are also about 6 holes in the floor where supply pipes used to come through that won't be reused.

My question is there a reason I should patch all these holes? The floor holes will get cement board and then tile over them. The hole in the wall will be hidden by the vanity. I'm wondering if it is a fire-spread issue? This is the first floor over a basement with an open ceiling.

(This is all IMHO, I'm neither a builder, nor have code memorized, just a guy who's worked on his house a few times)

- the hole behind the vanity I would patch with a piece of drywall, just so that things in the vanity don't drop into the gap. This is with the assumption that your vanity will be backless, as most are. I would not bother taping or mudding it. Who knows, you might want to access the plumbing again.

- the small holes in the floor -- the 3/4" holes for water pipes that are moved -- I wouldn't bother with.

- the big hole - the 6x10" where you cut a hole to patch the toilet, I think should get a patch, as Tod suggested. You want that floor to be reinforced and solid.

But I don't understand what you mean by "open ceiling". If there is no finished ceiling in the basement, then I would have expected you to cut-n-patch the soil pipe from below, rather than cut a hole in the floor.


...art

ps: aren't you putting electric radiant heating wires into the mud below the floor tiles? Now is the time, Matt!! Warm floor under your bare feet in the morning!
 
Its thick OSB. It would be a nightmare to replace--not a project I'm willing to tackle. Its not a square room --actually two rooms and we aren't taking out the shower.

Edit: I know what you are saying--about flex. It is a very solid floor.

it`s your call matt, just know that both hardibacker and durarock will wick moisture. grout even with the best sealer money can buy will eventually become semipermiable unless the sealer is reapplied religiously.
i know it`s more work to do it right but we all know what happens to osb when it`s left in contact with moisture:eek:......
 
Plug the holes... Nuff said, host of reasons why and only reason not to is in the realm of lazy and cheap (We all know you are not cheap or lazy so why start now.) do the job right or hire a pro to do it for you.


Eons down the road when "This Old House" redoes your bathroom, Norm and Silva's grandchildren will use your job as an example showing how the previous owner took shortcuts and half/wayed this job. Their historian will do the research and say this is an example of Matt Meiser's work, once he was a fine craftsman but this is of historical significance as it marks the decline in his work, the job where he started cutting corners so he could spend more time at the computer and bier haus...


Just finish the job completely, which includes covering the holes...
 
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But I don't understand what you mean by "open ceiling". If there is no finished ceiling in the basement, then I would have expected you to cut-n-patch the soil pipe from below, rather than cut a hole in the floor.

Yes, there's no finished ceiling in the basement. However, this just happened to be right above the main trunk line for the furnace. Even using one of these cable saws for PVC, I could't get a straight cut without opening up from above.

I looked at the electric radiant heat. It wouldn't be too bad, except for the fact that our service panel is full. So I'd have to upgrade that. And its in a finished wall in the laundry room so it becomes an even bigger project yet. Its a 200A panel, just short on space because we have 220 circuits for the well, my shop, the hot tub, stove and A/C eating up space. The 220 circuits eat the space of 4 110 circuits.
 
I looked at the electric radiant heat. It wouldn't be too bad, except for the fact that our service panel is full. So I'd have to upgrade that. And its in a finished wall in the laundry room so it becomes an even bigger project yet. Its a 200A panel, just short on space because we have 220 circuits for the well, my shop, the hot tub, stove and A/C eating up space. The 220 circuits eat the space of 4 110 circuits.

Dear Matt's wife.

You know, you'd be much happier with a gas stove. Instant-on, instant-off. Much better control for cooking. All the pros use gas stoves. Then you could pull that 220 circuit for the stove and use it for radiant in-floor heating in the bathroom.

(While you're at it, get a gas dryer, and you'll have even more space in the panel... :thumb: )

Best,
...art

ps: Honest, I'm just trying to help. Really!
 
(This is all IMHO, I'm neither a builder, nor have code memorized, just a guy who's worked on his house a few times)

- the hole behind the vanity I would patch with a piece of drywall, just so that things in the vanity don't drop into the gap. This is with the assumption that your vanity will be backless, as most are. I would not bother taping or mudding it. Who knows, you might want to access the plumbing again.

- the small holes in the floor -- the 3/4" holes for water pipes that are moved -- I wouldn't bother with.

- the big hole - the 6x10" where you cut a hole to patch the toilet, I think should get a patch, as Tod suggested. You want that floor to be reinforced and solid.

But I don't understand what you mean by "open ceiling". If there is no finished ceiling in the basement, then I would have expected you to cut-n-patch the soil pipe from below, rather than cut a hole in the floor.


...art

ps: aren't you putting electric radiant heating wires into the mud below the floor tiles? Now is the time, Matt!! Warm floor under your bare feet in the morning!

I will ditto this with one caveat. Fill the 3/4 empty pipe holes with expanding foam. Not for strength or support, but it will give spiders, etc. one less place to hang their hat.
 
Actually my wife would be fine with disconnecting the stove and eating out every day.
Sounds like she could be my wife's long lost sister. LOML doesn't cook. I think she married me for the food...it certainly wasn't my dashing good looks. :rofl:

On the radiant heat...how expensive would it be to just add the elements, but not plug them in? Down the road your electrical situation might change, and the power could be hooked up then.
 
Sounds like she could be my wife's long lost sister. LOML doesn't cook. I think she married me for the food...it certainly wasn't my dashing good looks. :rofl:

Geez, there must be THREE of those sisters, 'cause when our daughters moved away from home, my wife "Divorced the Kitchen".:(
 
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Nope, must be four and getting younger as they go. My first wife, wow could she ever cook. She would say "There is nothing in this house to eat", then pull together a tasteful 5 course meal of items that normally did not belong together, and yet tasted great.

At the same time she was a lobsterwoman so we often stayed down to the lobster pound that her dad ran. A lobster dinner was common when there was nothing else to eat. Down over the hill we would go, grab a crate of lobster and then pull out dinner for the night and steam them up. On the better nights we ate tuna steaks, scallops, clams, mussels, shrimp or whatever was coming off the boats at the time.

Then the divorce came...

New wife does not cook. In fact as I type this she is running to the store to buy some supper for tonight. Hot sandwiches. Now keep in mind any store from our house is 8 miles one way.

Its interesting...Tina was a great cook, never had a headache,(if you know what I mean) but was not faithful or a good housekeeper.

Patty is very pretty, very smart (2 college degrees), is NOT a lobsterman, is good at cleaning, is very faithful, but not good at cooking. Maybe we should post this as a poll and see which one everyone thinks is better for me. :)

Travis_and_Gaff2.JPG
 
Travis, I'd never heard of a lobster pound before. (Had to go look it up.) I thought I was fortunate to be able to go in the back yard year-round a pick a lemon off the tree. You Maine folks go pick a lobster. Too cool. ;)
 
LOML doesn't cook. I think she married me for the food...

Yeah, well doing dishes was one of the unwritten agreements when I got married. LOML does most of the cooking. In fact I've had to work slowly to convince her that going out to eat is okay every now and then. But the dishes... well 17 years on and I'm beginning to wish I could renegotiate that.

(way too much stuff does NOT go into a DW...:( )
 
Yeah, well doing dishes was one of the unwritten agreements when I got married. LOML does most of the cooking. In fact I've had to work slowly to convince her that going out to eat is okay every now and then. But the dishes... well 17 years on and I'm beginning to wish I could renegotiate that.

(way too much stuff does NOT go into a DW...:( )
LOML usually cleans up after I cook, but she leaves my pans and knives for me to clean (at my request). I seldom do much cooking (if any) during the week, so our dishwashing duties are usually pretty light.
 
On the radiant heat...how expensive would it be to just add the elements, but not plug them in? Down the road your electrical situation might change, and the power could be hooked up then.

I never thought about that possibility. I'm not sure Lowes would be the best place to get them, but it looks like just the mats would run me about $450 to do the main areas of the floor.

And on the holes--I got all the plumbing rough-ins completed tonight and I cut a piece of drywall for the hole in the wall, taped it with the fiberglass tape and put on one coat of mud. I probably won't do any more than that. The hole I had to cut in the floor got patched with a piece of 3/4" plywood, and I'll probably take the advice someone gave me on using some expanded foam on the old supply line holes after we install the cement board.

Oh, and my wife does cook, just that she wants to go out to eat every chance she can. ;)
 
here`s g/p`s take on the osb-vs-plywood issue copied shamelessly from over at jlc;



Georgia Pacific article on plywood versus OSB Versatility, Stiffness, Creep - edge swell.

OSB swell is generally greater than in plywood due to the release of compaction stress in OSB created during the pressing of wood chips into an OSB panel. Plywood that has swollen will return to its nominal thickness as the wood dries. OSB will remain swollen to some degree after it dries because the panel will still have the higher "compaction ratio" that was present as of the date of manufacture.

The comparison below, undertook by the APA, lists the thickness swell (in percent) using a water soak test.
Plywood Average swell= 6% to 8% depending on thickness
OSB Average swell= 10% to 15% depending on thickness

Over a period of time, when subjected to high humidity or a series of dramatic wetting events, OSB is more prone to panel swell than plywood especially at the edges. Panel swell is most noticeable along the edges where it is critical for flooring and roof sheathing to match-up as not to show through the flooring or roofing materials.

Research done by the USDA Forest Products Laboratory (Research Paper FLP-RP-574) shows that over an extended period of time, under low constant loads and temperature, and in high-humid conditions, OSB will sag or "creep" more than plywood.

Plywood OSB
50% RH Fractional creep values 1.4mm 1.7mm
85% 1.9mm 5.2mm
Cyclic RH 50%-85% 2.0mm 4.6mm


Long-term, plywood sags less than OSB in humid conditions. In humid areas with vented attics and crawl spaces, using plywood for roof and floor sheathing can reduce risk of sagging roofs and floors.

APA Technical Note N375B states that plywood panel bending stiffness is 10% greater than OSB at equal joist spacing. Panel bending stiffness is the capacity to resist deflection.


Density of plywood is 34-36 pounds per cubic foot compared to OSB at 38-42 pounds per cubic foot.

One 23/32" 4'x 8' plywood piece would weigh approximately 67 lbs.
One 23/32" 4'x 8' OSB piece would weigh approximately 78 lbs.

Plywood is approximately 15% to 19% lighter than OSB. While the additional weight of OSB does not mean increased strength, it just means that it is heavier to handle on the job. In addition, OSB's higher weight means higher thermal conductivity (thus slightly less R value) than plywood.

Plywood and OSB: Screw withdrawal or holding ability.

Group 1 plywood, made from the strongest species of wood such as Southern Yellow Pine, holds screws better than OSB.

Plywood and OSB: Nail withdrawal or holding ability.

As shown in APA report T2001-3A, plywood generally has higher nail withdrawal values using plain-shank, ring-shank, and screw-shank nails, even though OSB has a higher density than plywood. The numbers below reflect dry test conditions. The numbers vary some when tested under dry to wet-redry conditions.
Withdrawal strength (lbs/in. penetration)
Plain Ring Screw
5/8" Plywood Mean: 79.7 316.3 83.7
23/32" OSB Mean: 67.6 281.5 63.9

Nail withdrawal strength measures the force to pull the embedded nail from the nailed parts.

After roof sheathing or sub floor panels are nailed to the framing, nails will remain in place better in plywood than OSB.

Under severe weather testing, plywood is shown to be more impact resistant than OSB. Plywood outperforms OSB in the South Florida Building Code (Dade and Broward Counties) mandated use of the "large missile" impact test for materials used in walls and roofs.


Plywood is more impact resistant than OSB. This provides resistance to flying objects in high wind situations. More impact resistance provides added durability against accidents caused by impact on floors, roofs, and walls on the inside and outside of the home.
 
I never thought about that possibility. I'm not sure Lowes would be the best place to get them, but it looks like just the mats would run me about $450 to do the main areas of the floor.

And on the holes--I got all the plumbing rough-ins completed tonight and I cut a piece of drywall for the hole in the wall, taped it with the fiberglass tape and put on one coat of mud. I probably won't do any more than that. The hole I had to cut in the floor got patched with a piece of 3/4" plywood, and I'll probably take the advice someone gave me on using some expanded foam on the old supply line holes after we install the cement board.

Oh, and my wife does cook, just that she wants to go out to eat every chance she can. ;)

My good man...you do not need to do the whole floor in order to get what you are after. Think about the areas you want your warm floor to be. If it was me, I would have a small mat just outside the shower, tub or both, depending upon how your bath is arranged. Then I would put one near the sink or vanity. Then a small one just in front of the toilet.

I can't say where exactly in your house, because I don't know its layout, but basically instead of doing the whole floor, just do it where you spend a lot of time barefoot. In front of the shower is nice because any puddled water gets dried up quickly. In front of the sink because as you stand there barefoot shaving or having your wife do her make-up of hair, your feet are warm. I might even put one just in front of the toilet because as you are sitting there doing business, again your feet would be warm.

I think you can see where I am going with this. Just use electric mats where you spend the majority of your time, and where you would want puddled water to be dried up.
 
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Travis, I'd never heard of a lobster pound before. (Had to go look it up.) I thought I was fortunate to be able to go in the back yard year-round a pick a lemon off the tree. You Maine folks go pick a lobster. Too cool. ;)

Yeah here in Maine we get pretty good seafood, of course we throw back the little lobsters like this :)

(Just kidding of course, though this 12 pounder was thrown back, only because it is against the law to keep anything over about 6 pounds...its a size limit no weight, but around 6 pounds). This one was caught off Criehaven Island in 2003)

The second picture is of a lobster pound, or lobster wharf. That is where the lobsterman bring in their catch of seafood and sell it to a dealer...most of the time a co-op. In this case, its the Bremen, Maine Lobster Pound Coop. Don't be fooled by the looks of the derelict buildings, this place does a few million dollars in lobster every year. Its a very lucrative business.



12_Pound_Lobster2-344x527.jpg


Bremen_Lobster_Pound.jpg
 
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