SOMETHING FOR ALL MEMBERS and GUESTS

WE NEED YOUR HELP---IT IS ONLY GOING TO TAKE 30 SECONDS
(We know, you have heard that before. Well this time it is true.)

VISITORS AND MEMBERS, ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS READ THE FOLLOWING.

For several weeks the moderators (mods) have been hashing and re-hashing the political and religious aspects of the Family Woodworking C of C.

THE PROBLEMS

Some members feel that our rules are too lax.
Some members feel that our rules are too stringent.
Some members feel that the rules are not uniformly enforced.
There is a feeling that member “A” gets called out about a statement, while member “B” does not get notified about the same problem.

THE CURRENT SITUATION

The mods have been spending more time on the problem than every thing else they do. (Especially the religious aspect)

I believe that most, if not all mods, have had to make decisions based on the C of C that run contrary to their own personal feelings.

Some of the mods have lost sleep because of churning over the various aspects of the problem.

The mods are aware that there are no rules that we can write that people cannot get around, either by accident or on purpose.

We want to keep the C of C as simple as will work. We remember that a famous person, years ago made the statement some thing like, Every law / rule made to solve a problem will create at least two more problems.

We have some very devoutly religious members (of many faiths) and we have some members who easily can cuss a blue streak. These members do control themselves when they post on FWW. We sincerely wish everyone else would try to do this also.

The main thrust of FWW is woodworking. Equally important is, Family. You should be pleased to have your children read anything on the threads. Equally important: It does not matter if you are a Democrat, Republican, Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Atheist or any religion. FWW does not care what color skin you have, where you live, how much money you make or how skilled you are at woodworking.

No one should proselytize another on FWW or offend otherwise by swearing, name calling, etc.

The mods are trying to make an initial decision on this by Friday Sept 16, in case it affects your voting for new moderators.
This thread is also duplicated in the general woodworking section. We want as many people as possible to see it.

Thank you.
 
Last edited:
Jim,

I have no problem with leaving politics and religion out of these forums. I come here to read about woodworking, machines, tools and techniques. I have made acquaintences of many great people and I would hope this is never taken away from me, becuse of some who cannot, for whatever reason, control their feelings for some subjects.

The mods have done, IMHO, a terrific job, one that I would not want to undertake, because of those complexities. All of you, keep up the good work.

Aloha, Tony, an appreciative member of FWW.
 
Speaking as one who has served as a moderator, I can say that it is a challenging position to undertake. There is no shortage of participants who, given a captive audience, cannot resist the urge to impose or expound their personal beliefs regardless of how inappropriate the context.

FamilyWoodWorking is primarily about woodworking. One of the joys/miseries of this unique group is that we support a large percentage of Off Topic discussion in order to enjoy the fellowship and sense of family it promotes. Kudos to the mods; past, present and future, who undertake the task of keeping FWW a wonderfully open place to discuss, above all, woodworking and all the elements that go into making up the lives of the members that surround it.
 
I'd rather not see politics or religion discussed because it seems that it's impossible to have a rational discussion about either subject. Very quickly the discussion stops being factual and rational and degrades to name calling.

I actually would like to be able to discuss those subjects with others who can do so in a factual and rational manner but I've come to the conclusion that it's not possible.

So, if we're going to ban religious discussion, I'd also like to see signatures that praise some deity (usually a Christian deity) banned, also.

Mike
 
I believe the efforts of the Moderators have been good. All you can ask or expect is a well meant effort to objectively interpret and enforce the current CoCs. The Moderators like all members are human too and thus subject to making errors on occasion. But, the group decisions made by the Mod Team here typically reduces or minimizes the chance of a subjective decision on the part of one Mod.

No matter how well written the CoCs are there will be certain members who when called on the carpet for their post will claim unfair bias, or unfair enforcement. These type of claims typically come from those who dare to walk too close to the line and step over it periodically. These same individuals can often be habitual offenders.

Religion and politics are two subjects that should not be discussed and yet it's hard to not want to express support for someone in a time of personal distress or disaster by saying something like "my thoughts and prayers are with you". Some are offended by that kind of statement. I believe some people want to be offended or erroneously believe their view of the world is the only correct view and thus the only interpretation of how things should be.

In short.....don't change anything and keep on doing what you've been doing. It seems to work well for most of the members and you aren't going to please everybody all of the time. Get some sleep knowing you made your best effort and that's all one can do or expect.
 
I'd rather not see politics or religion discussed because it seems that it's impossible to have a rational discussion about either subject. Very quickly the discussion stops being factual and rational and degrades to name calling.

I actually would like to be able to discuss those subjects with others who can do so in a factual and rational manner but I've come to the conclusion that it's not possible.

So, if we're going to ban religious discussion, I'd also like to see signatures that praise some deity (usually a Christian deity) banned, also.

Mike

I can agree to ban political and religous threads amd or debates....this is a wood working forum......not a political or religous site.

That being said.....when one of the members asks for prayers for a loved one....I mean "for the Love of G-D".....what is wrong with sending him our prayers? And I am someone who does not go to church, or involved with the church in any way....(except when i play Assassins Creed :) )

My point is ....these are typed words.....nothing more....I don't know you and you don't know me. That being said, what is the harm of sending someone our best wishes and prayers in a time of need......Is'nt that what families do?
 
Last edited:
To whom it may concern:

These are my words and mine only. I see more and more every day.... we the people ...in this country giving up our freedoms in order to not offend the few who choose differently. At some point....enough is enough! This is a woodworking forum that was started by a few like minded people. As it got bigger and bigger the members became more and more diverse. Thats all good and fine but if you do not like this forum....please find another one. If/When the day comes that I do not like it.... I too will leave. I'm not going to sit here and try to tell everyone that you have to behave a certain way so as to be sensitive to my feelings. If I don't like the neighborhood....I'll move!
We are all adults and we know what is right and wrong.
This country was built on a religious right. That right is in all of us. If you choose to not exercise that right...so be it. There is a HUGE difference between asking for someones prayers in a post and swearing in another. They are not the same offense.
If you do not like what you read in a post...move on to the next. If you eventually find yourself alone with no one responding to you then take a look at yourself and ask why. If you don't know...ask. I don't have any problem telling someone that their sense of humor is not to my liking or I don't like their language or if I prefer not reading their posts. I have that right! You also have that right! Use it......or not! You nor I have the right to tell anyone that you should behave in a way to satisfy someone else.
Be an adult...act like one....and put your selfish feelings away while on this forum.
I like this forum. It has become a place of comfort for me. I have learned much and hope to learn even more. This forum is special because of the people and the way they handle themselves.
It is my hope that we can all get along. You and I may never be best friends. However we can all be members of this forum and enjoy it.
 
I pretty well said my peace (intentional mis-spelling there) on this matter in the 'thoughts and feelings' thread, However I will reiterate that the Leaders of these forums are the Moderators and Administrators, and they do a daRned good job each and every day.

Speaking as a one time Moderator, it is NOT an easy job, when a sticky situation comes up. Thankfully there aren't all that many of them. Nearly every one though involves either substitute characters that thinly veil swearing, or religion, unless it is an election year somewhere, and people chime in not thinking of the CoC. Back in the day, and we had a pretty solid group of regulars who knew the rules and who also would edit their posts when we pointed out a violation.

I'll be watching with interest what the staff comes up with on this matter: :lurk::lurk::lurk::lurk:

Current Mod/Admin staff, keep up the good work, it is greatly appreciated!
 
That being said.....when one of the members asks for prayers for a loved one....I mean "for the Love of G-D".....what is wrong with sending him our prayers?
I'll point out that some people do not pray for a variety of reasons - including belief that prayer entreaties would have no effect on a deity which already knows the future.

Those people have a difficult time responding to the request for prayers.

I don't have any problem with someone asking for prayers but they're likely to only get a response from those who do believe in prayer.

As an alternate they could ask for good wishes.

Mike
 
Last edited:
I'll chime in with my $.02 as well.

Let me start by thanking all the Admins & Moderators for doing an excellent job. Until I saw this thread, I didn't realize that this was that big of an issue here -- so you can't be doing that bad :thumb::thumb:

I'm gong to go out a bit here and express some of my personal view -- if I need to edit, let me know and I'll be happy to make revisions:

I am not Christian. Not only that, I have a dislike for any organized religion -- I've tried several and none work for me. I expect this puts me in the minority on this forum, which I am fine with. That said, I also understand that others have different views and those views are very important to who they are.

I see three different ways religion can enter into discussions on the forum and have a nuanced opinion about each of them:

1) Family members include some form of religious statement in their signature line:

As long as this isn't over the top, I have no problems with this. It is a chance for people to personalize things a bit. If their religion is that important to them, a short statement saying "my religion is important to me" isn't a problem for me. Frankly, I see this as the equivalent of someone saying "oneway lathes are the only lathe I'd use" in their tagline.

Now if they were to have a signature line that said "You must all convert to my religion now or suffer!", that would be a different matter.

2) Comments with words invoking religious ideas/tones used in the Off Topic forums to express concern, sympathy, and/or empathy:

One of the things I like about this forum is being able to share some non-woodworking aspects of our lives. When a natural disaster happens or one of us suffers a personal loss, we can find comfort by talking about it with others here on the forum. If during one of those threads, someone were to post something like "My prayers are with you and your family." -- this does not offend me. I step back and look at the sentiment they are expressing -- one of care and concern. For them, it may be the most meaningful way of expressing that care and concern. I say accept it in the spirit it was intended rather than look to get offended because they said they are praying.

Again, there is nuance here too. Comments made with the intent to convert or otherwise make another feel uncomfortable in their beliefs should be out of bounds. Under no circumstances should we tolerate someone saying "Your house got hit by that tornado because you aren't the same religion as me. You must convert now!".

3) Religious comments made in the "on topic" forums:
I generally see anything overtly religious as being "off topic" so it doesn't belong here. Granted, the definition of "overtly religious" means different things to different people.

For me, a comment in the Finishing forum where someone describes their finishing technique as "Spray and Pray" is fine. Its intent is to be an amusing way to say "I just do it and hope for the best".

Posts where the primary intent of the religious statement is to flaunt one's beliefs in front of others have no place on the forums.

Ok, so that was probably more like $.05. Maybe I shouldn't have taken all those religious studies classes -- it's made me too opinionated on the topic.

-Matt
 
Thanks Matt and to all who have voiced there views openly here, by doing so we can get feel for what is considered ok and what isnt and it can possibly change our views on what we thought was ok or not ok.. and to think a little longer about the other side of the street.. the grass may still be green there too but just a different variety..:thumb::thumb:
 
I'll toss my two cents in here as well.
First and foremost, I tip my hat to the moderators on this forum. They are doing a great job walking that fine line of what is/what isnt acceptable, who is having a bad day who just wasnt thinking etc. And are very diplomatic about issuing corrections (dont ask me how I know this....)

I also want to express my apologies if any of my off topic discussion posts have offended anyone. I would never, ever wish to do that. And some of the "humorous" posts that have mentioned religion or politics, in my own view were relatively benign in nature and not of a cruel or biased nature.

That said, to say that a persons statement of "my thoughts and prayers are with you" should not be allowed goes way too far. Anyone who takes offense to someone expressing kindness to another individual really needs to take a long hard look at their exisitence. That statement has no basis in "who's religion is better or more important than anothers" It is very generic, for all anyone knows that individual could be praying to the great preistess of zorg.
And if we as fellow woodworkers and more importantly as a family can't say something like that to offer comfort and kindness at another members time of need?.... that in itself is wrong.
I have found that no matter what one does, right wrong or indifferent there will always be at least one individual that will take offense or go to extreme lengths to find a hidden slight or meaning to get upset over.

Discussions and arguments over religion or politics have no place here. Heck, just look around you, they are why we have all the wars we do, and people killing and persecuting others the way they do.
We can get enough of that on the daily news.....

What we need is more laughter, and more smiles:D

"If there is no malice in your heart, there can't be none in your jokes," Will Rogers
 
That said, to say that a persons statement of "my thoughts and prayers are with you" should not be allowed goes way too far. Anyone who takes offense to someone expressing kindness to another individual really needs to take a long hard look at their existence.
There's a difference between someone putting a comment in a post that says "my thoughts and prayers are with you" and one that specifically asks for prayers.

One is unsolicited and the other makes the assumption that everyone will have a religion, or even if they have a religion, that they believe in prayer.

The post immediately excludes people who do not pray.

I don't think anyone objects to someone saying "my thoughts and prayers are with you" in an unsolicited manner. It's the religious solicitation that bothers people.

Mike
 
There's a difference between someone putting a comment in a post that says "my thoughts and prayers are with you" and one that specifically asks for prayers.

One is unsolicited and the other makes the assumption that everyone will have a religion, or even if they have a religion, that they believe in prayer.

The post immediately excludes people who do not pray.

I don't think anyone objects to someone saying "my thoughts and prayers are with you" in an unsolicited manner. It's the religious solicitation that bothers people.

Mike

Agreed on the first part and I hope so on the second
 
I fail to see why anyone should be offended when someone in a distressing situation comes to a group of friends or dare I say it "family" and asks for "prayers".

Are those who are offended so insecure in their beliefs that can't stand a display of a differing belief? Or...are they so overly self-assured in their own beliefs they are being arrogant and refuse to acknowledge or grant respect to someone with a differing belief?

My true friends respect me for being me, for having my beliefs and we accept the differences in beliefs. We often tease each other about those differences. We often celebrate our differences.

My wife and I are so different. I am over 6'1" tall. My wife is 5'2" tall. I have always outweighed her by over 75 lbs. Until a few years ago she was always quiet and shy. I am not. Prior to an election we often discuss political topics and then our votes cancel each other's vote. So what? We respect, honor and celebrate our differences.

It's my belief that politics or religion should not be discussed here.

I don't think people should be allowed to make religious statements in their signatures. To me, those statements are a form of "In you face" challenge to the COCs to which they agreed when they registered.

You cannot write COCs that will prevent anyone from finding a way to weasel around them, interpret them differently or prevent someone from violating them.

Even in a pure democracy, you can't please everyone. The same is true for this website.

We come here to share friendship and woodworking. Check your religion and politics at the door. But if you need some moral support, ask for it. True friends ....true family will support you and not be offended.

And yes....nobody forces you to visit this website. If you don't like the manner with which it functions, make a rational, reasonable, civil attempt to change things. Then if it doesn't work out in a manner to your satisfaction, and you really feel offended...don't make a public scene....don't keep subjecting yourself to a website you feel is offensive.

At the risk of being redundant......We come here to share friendship and woodworking. Check your religion and politics at the door. But if you need some moral support, ask for it. True friends ....true family will support you and not be offended.
 
As another ex-moderator here, I know that it is a difficult job.

I was also very much involved in framing the Family Woodworking code of conduct and, to me, no religion means no religion. That includes the banning of things such as soliciting for prayers. On this point, I agree with the reasoning put forth by Mike Henderson.
 
I fail to see why anyone should be offended when someone in a distressing situation comes to a group of friends or dare I say it "family" and asks for "prayers"....
I think what people are saying is that if someone wants support, they should ask for it in a non-religious manner. Prayer is definitely religious and is not the only way others can give support. By asking for prayers, they are excluding people who do not pray (for whatever reasons).

Why not be inclusive and simply ask for support? The title of the post could be "Bad news - I need your support" instead of "Bad news - I need your prayers".

Mike
 
Last edited:
Top