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Chairs........ Mission Accomplished!

I'll be talking to my contact today, I spent about 3 hours talking to him at my workshop yesterday, while looking at the chairs in use and the ones that need fixing.

Rob lots of good info there, thanks, most of what you are saying I understand and I am doing or have done, the thing is they need a quote from me now, they have decided that they want to commission me to do the work, but they need a quote before they can proceed, accountants etc to keep happy you know :D

I told them 5000 yen an hour and 15 hours of work for the one chair, my contact told me to estimate on the high side, then if it takes a lot less work I can charge less time. I'll be talking to my contact again today to see what he thinks.

I agree that I don't want to go too cheap, but I hope you all understand I am trying to build a long term profitable relationship here, not just make money on a one time thing.

Cheers!
 
I've done a fair amount of repair work for several people at my company. I've screwed myself at every opportunity for every reason that Rob states. I was interested in having something challenging to do, so I did it for what I laughingly call a "friends and family" rate. I've rebuilt Chippendales, remanufactured rockers that no one else in this county even begins to be able to figure out. Now, people have begun to think that what I do and what I charge is just barely fair, since if they had the tools they could do it themselves. BS. Tools plus 20 years' worth of skills development.

Those chairs represent someone else's livelihood. Charge it like it's your livelihood. After all, who else is going to or even capable of stepping up to that particular plate?
 
Bruce Haugen said:
I've done a fair amount of repair work for several people at my company. I've screwed myself at every opportunity for every reason that Rob states. I was interested in having something challenging to do, so I did it for what I laughingly call a "friends and family" rate. I've rebuilt Chippendales, remanufactured rockers that no one else in this county even begins to be able to figure out. Now, people have begun to think that what I do and what I charge is just barely fair, since if they had the tools they could do it themselves. BS. Tools plus 20 years' worth of skills development.

Those chairs represent someone else's livelihood. Charge it like it's your livelihood. After all, who else is going to or even capable of stepping up to that particular plate?
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Thanks for the input Bruce, you comment "what I charge is just barely fair, since if they had the tools they could do it themselves" is so very true :doh:

They have accepted my offer, 15 hours at 5000 yen an hour to fix one chair, or try to fix one chair, and then we will renegotiate on the other 7 chairs. I'll have to find a place to put the other 7 chairs while I work :doh::huh:

Maybe the wine cellar..... :rolleyes:

Oh just so you know, 5000 yen is about $62, so that would work out to $930 to fix one chair..... I hope I can get it done right in that allotted time.

Cheers!
 
Sounds like you're taking a well-measured approach, Stu. You've got your foot in the door, but made sure the door stays open price-wise in the future. ;)
 
Oh boy we still stuck on price here. Some day ya all will get it and realize price is not the be all and end all.

Also get away from thinking hourly rate.


Stu my thought was $1000 per chair. That's what i would have pitched for a solution. Regardless of whether it takes me 5 minutes or 15 hours. The value is in a solution to their predicament.
 
If the going shop rate is 100 dollars per hour you should be around there yourself. Charging too little is as bad or worse than charging too much.
Too much and they think you are greedy too little and they think you dont know what you are doing.......
That said for a job like this where each chair may/will have different needs keep your materials costs separate from your labor. Make sure your customer understands this. Give them a worst case scenario for there budgeting department. Bean counters hate open ended costs. But make sure they understand that it is a worst case scenario and that it will more than likely be less, materials wise and time spent on each.
If shops in your area get the 100 per hour that doesnt include materials. That is hard costs, soft costs and profit. The things that are constant from one job to the next. The materials get figured in on top of that.
Dont worry about future work, you havent got the first job yet and if they are dangling that carrot in front of you it is a test to see if you jump and give them a deal on the first (and good chance only) job. Also, if you jump on this they will expect it and do the same to you on any future jobs.
Bid each job as if it is the only one you will be doing for them. IF they start giving you a good amount of business, throw them a bone now and then. Dont tell them you are going to do it. Make it a surprise at the end. They appreciate it and dont expect it each job.Tell them it's a "thank you".
 
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Stu look at it this way you have a shop and tools that most others don't. Tools wear out and who replaces those? They all cost money some more than others. Sure others can do what you do but they would have to buy the tools to do it and rent a shop first. Like going to a mechanic for your car. they have an hourly shop rate that covers the business licence, WCB, Tools wear ( what is the cost a saw blades for the saw stop and maybe the brake) , Seviceman fees and shop rental plus accountant fees and disposal fees all rolled up into one price. It is not just about just your time. If you charge less than the going rate around town you are not doing yourself and anyone else any favors just devaluing your skills. If the going rate is 100 bucks then stick to your guns and charge the same. Do not sell yourself short. we have all seen lots of what you do and you are more a pro than you give yourself credit for. Good luck with the project and look forward to the usual pics of the progression of the job. :thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
This reminds me of a real experience from my computing days. A client (big insurance company) had an image program that didn't work. Image was my specialty. How much will it cost to fix it? I don't know. I haven't seen the program, and once I do, I will have to spend time figuring out what it will take to fix it in order to give you an estimate. But we can't proceed without an estimate, a budget.

I finally said, sight unseen, I bet I can have it done in a week - 40 hours. With corporate overhead, my billable rate took your breath away, so 40 hours was a lot of money. After a couple months (and who knows how many meetings), the client had gotten the approval, and I was assigned the work.

When I finally looked into the program for the first time, the problem was easy (for me) to fix. I was done in 1.7 hours. My boss was mad - she had planned on 40 hours revenue. The client was mad - why had they gone through their internal approval process for the many thousands of dollars to fix the program. I would have been happy for someone to charge them a flat rate of $10,000 to fix the program, but the contract called for hourly billing, and I don't lie about hours when I am paid by the hour.

Now you know one of many reasons I retired early to build furniture. With no employees. Working for myself. No corporate idiocy. But Stu has to work with somebody's corporate idiocy.
 
Rob Keeble said:
Oh boy we still stuck on price here. Some day ya all will get it and realize price is not the be all and end all.

Also get away from thinking hourly rate.


Stu my thought was $1000 per chair. That's what i would have pitched for a solution. Regardless of whether it takes me 5 minutes or 15 hours. The value is in a solution to their predicament.
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I was not stuck on price Rob, the customer was.

I wanted to take one chair apart and give it a fix up, then I could tell them;

1) if it is even worth fixing the chairs
2) how much it should cost to fix each chair

I cannot tell them either answer right now, but they have a corporate structure that they work within, the fellow that I am dealing with understands my approach and agreed with me it was the best way, but his bosses did not agree, they want an hourly cost and an estimate on hour many hours it will take to fix a chair. In the end, I gave them an hourly rate of 5000 yen an hour, and an estimate of 15 hours, they understand that it could be 5 hours or 25 hours, but I estimate (guess!!) it will be closer to 15. Once I can tackle one chair, and prove my work to them, then we will talk price to fix the other seven chairs. I don't like to work for an hourly rate, as my mind never stops churning over a problem, I'd rather get paid for each chair.

While $100 an hour is the going rate for most high end shops around here, they are proven businesses, with a reputation and a history, I'm not, that is a fact. I do have other assets, I can speak the same language as them, and we are culturally closer, which helps a lot in the trust areas.

I think that if I do a bang up job on the first chair, and fix it to their satisfaction I should be able to ask for $1000 a chair to fix the other seven chairs, that is no small amount of money, and a fair bit of work.

We shall see.

Thank you all, sincerely for your honest opinions, they do certainly help me out :thumb:
 
allen levine said:
cool, I was thinking of offering advice also, but let the pros help you out.
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Advise away Allen! :D

Well the Thunderbirds are a "GO" minimum of 85 hours work, will also include a paid three day trip down to Osaka for the final fitting, this will be billed separately.:thumb:

I'm rather excited by all of this, I could make some money, have a new challenge and get my foot in the door with a really big company.

I know not all of you think this is a good idea, but I'm excited

BTW $50 an hour is not actually correct, with the exchange rate it is more like $62 an hour. :)
 
Stuart Ablett said:
...

Well the Thunderbirds are a "GO" minimum of 85 hours work, will also include a paid three day trip down to Osaka for the final fitting, this will be billed separately.:thumb:

...
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Congratulations! You are clearly happy with the deal, and they are glad to proceed, so that makes it good for both of you, no matter what business arrangement might theoretically be better.

I assume "Thunderbirds" is a code name for the project. Does the 85 hours include time to take the first chair to Osaka, or do you now have a commitment for multiple chairs in the initial agreement?
 
85 hours is an estimate for fixing all 8 chairs, but there is a very good understanding that this 85 hour number is, to use their term, "Organic" meaning they understand it could easily end up being 120 hours or even just 60 hours. They just needed a number for the green eye shade crowd, but they are committed to getting the job done and done right.

The two to three day trip to Osaka to have the chairs "fitted" with the artist is a completely separate billing, they will pay for expenses, the train, hotels etc and they have even offered to have my tools shipped, which is one thing I will NOT do, no way I'm letting the Japanese courier guys handle my hand planes, chisels etc :eek:. As you can imagine, next to nothing they use is "Off the shelf" so they understand that rough estimates are just that.

The eight chairs are coming on Monday, then it will be a matter of spending about 6 hours a day fixing them, or better said modifying them so they will be of use to the artist. Then in about two weeks (YIKES!!) the middle management boss will arrive in Japan and we will go over the progress I've made.

One good piece of news is that the wood that is used in the chairs, Linden, or Basswood, of which I was concerned about, as it is not a wood that is usually used for furniture, it turns out that the chairs in use now are made from this very wood, and they have held up very well. That is one big concern gone!

They also want me to document everything I do with pictures, which will be no problem at all for me ;) :D

Yes, I'm very excited about this, and my lovely wife is a bit shocked over the kind of money I will be earning doing this. I'm sure that most of you who do this as a hobby understand what I'm talking about, for example when a friend's wife wanted me to make her 4 matching wooden bowls for a wedding present to give away, my wife could not believe that someone would PAY ME to make bowls :rofl::rofl: I guess as she gets them for free all the time, she does not value them, like the work I do around here for the woodworking etc, it is just something I do, so the value of it is hard for her, and especially the Monster-In-Law to see, well they are seeing it now!!

Yep feels good! :thumb:
 
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Stuart Ablett said:
Yes, I'm very excited about this, and my lovely wife is a bit shocked over the kind of money I will be earning doing this. I'm sure that most of you who do this as a hobby understand what I'm talking about, for example when a friend's wife wanted me to make her 4 matching wooden bowls for a wedding present to give away, my wife could not believe that someone would PAY ME to make bowls :rofl::rofl: I guess as she gets them for free all the time, she does not value them, like the work I do around here for the woodworking etc, it is just something I do, so the value of it is hard for her, and especially the Monster-In-Law to see, well they are seeing it now!!

Yep feels good! :thumb:
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Good for you Stu you have a right to feel good about your work and be sure to wave the check in front of the MIL :rofl::rofl::thumb::thumb::thumb::thumb:
 
Wow-I just watched the video and it is amazing. I think you have done well so far Stu. Good luck with this project. I have a good feeling about this for you.

Rob K.-thanks for all the wonderful business education. I have never seen it described so well. Big difference between value and cost. I think I actually understand what you are explaining.
 
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