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table saw advice needed

Vaughn McMillan said:
I'm by no means an expert on European tool laws, but I seem to recall that the EU safety regulations have pretty much eliminated the traditional tablesaw from the European market. The slider is considered safer than a traditional saw (and rightly so, I think).
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Yup and for similar reasons you'll have a hard time funding a saw made after (I think.. dates are not my thing) sometime in the 80s over there that will even accept a dado blade. They also seem to have more integral dust collection, which can make them real hard to run unless you have a semi-decent collector.

I kind of chuckled at the Martin suggestion (which I'm quite sure Glenn didn't mean entirely seriously) if you flinch at the hammer price.. Well.. ouch!
 
sure am glad we dont live in Spain,, we are spoiled over here in regards to tool sales.. hammer makes good saws and they do have a lower scale line that is cheaper than the pro line
 
Ryan Mooney said:
Yup and for similar reasons you'll have a hard time funding a saw made after (I think.. dates are not my thing) sometime in the 80s over there that will even accept a dado blade. They also seem to have more integral dust collection, which can make them real hard to run unless you have a semi-decent collector.

I kind of chuckled at the Martin suggestion (which I'm quite sure Glenn didn't mean entirely seriously) if you flinch at the hammer price.. Well.. ouch!
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As I understand the European regulations, you may not have a non-through cut on your saw. Therefore a dado blade is out (although I can pontificate at length on why I don't use mine even though my saw supports it). And my riving knife extended above the top edge of the blade (but I modified the riving knife so I could set it even with the top of the blade).

No question that Martin sells magnificent machines, and priced to match. But I am surprised that MiniMax was not in your list. I have always heard that they were popular in Europe, and far less expensive than a Martin.
 
Charlie Plesums said:
No question that Martin sells magnificent machines, and priced to match. But I am surprised that MiniMax was not in your list. I have always heard that they were popular in Europe, and far less expensive than a Martin.
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Oh no question if I had room and budget (and arguably need) for a martin.. Wow! for sure! But Toni had already laid out his price pain point.. And well martin is definitively above it :D.

Not sure if the prices are still the same now (or indeed if there might be a broader product line than I looked at) but a few years back when I was shopping the minimax was priced just a smidge higher than the hammer products (arguably they're somewhat heavier built as well so the process seemed fair), I also got in on a decent sale which likely helped. It also seems that minimax includes more options in the base kit, if you start adding things onto the hammer products the extras can add up in a hurry. I guess that's a long winded way of saying that it was hard to compare apples to apples between the two.
 
Toni, give this company a call they might be able to arrange something for you there really big over here in used saws.. might be able to work out something even on a new saw stop?

LINK
 
Ryan Mooney said:
.....Not sure if the prices are still the same now (or indeed if there might be a broader product line than I looked at) but a few years back when I was shopping the minimax was priced just a smidge higher than the hammer products (arguably they're somewhat heavier built as well so the process seemed fair), I also got in on a decent sale which likely helped. It also seems that minimax includes more options in the base kit, if you start adding things onto the hammer products the extras can add up in a hurry. I guess that's a long winded way of saying that it was hard to compare apples to apples between the two.
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The MiniMax comparison is hard. Until 2002 they sold only through dealers, who didn't have machines in stock, nor expertise, nor parts available, so the total MiniMax USA sales were less than in Portugal. In 2002 Jim Strain formed a new company, MiniMax-USA which was owned 1/3 by MiniMax (Italy), 1/3 by SCMI (the mother company), and 1/3 by him. Since customers who went to the SCMI HQ in Atlanta were often bait and switch until they were priced out of competition, Jim opened new offices away from Atlanta - in Austin Texas. Dealers who did no more than show catalog pictures were dropped, and MiniMax became a direct sales company in the USA.

To get away from the bait and switch reputation, the machines imported in the USA were largely "loaded" so there were few options to inch the price up (and fewer parts kits to allow people to upgrade). Some of the low end line, and the machines without options, were not imported in the USA.

Then in 2008 the Austin office was closed, and the parts warehouses consolidated. Now dealers are welcome in the USA the same way that MiniMax is sold in the rest of the world, although two of the "direct" salesmen remain. As price competition has become harder, MiniMax is going back to options for more of the machine features, and some lower end machines are being imported (for example the 16 inch jointer planer now has three versions, rather than just two).

I believe Hammer is made in Taiwan, unlike it's big brother Felder made in Austria. MiniMax is made in San Marino (Italy).

As a very happy MiniMax customer, I hope this explanation helps.
 
Charlie Plesums;414204 I believe Hammer is made in Taiwan said:
Thanks Charlie, Hammer and Felder are both the same company or at least they are together in their web page. Where are they made I have no idea, my feeling is that judging for their prices Hammer is the low range or secondary brand of Felder although they look as fine machines. Most Hammer models do not have equivalent on Felder, for instance the Hammer K3 basic which is the one that I'm looking does not have a counterpart on Felder
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Toni Ciuraneta said:
Thanks Charlie, Hammer and Felder are both the same company or at least they are together in their web page. Where are they made I have no idea, my feeling is that judging for their prices Hammer is the low range or secondary brand of Felder although they look as fine machines. Most Hammer models do not have equivalent on Felder, for instance the Hammer K3 basic which is the one that I'm looking does not have a counterpart on Felder
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That's pretty much correct.

Felder (and even more so the format4 line) are Felders "industrial" line where the hammer machines are thier lighter weight high end honorary line and not quite as robust. Both have finally assembly and qa done in Germany (technically austria I suppose - or at least were 3ish years ago), but the hammer does have more taiwaenese made parts, I believe the chassis is welded at the Felder factory though. Some of the higher end components have made it into the hammer as well recently. For instance they now come default with the heavier Felder fence (so when you see folks complaining about how horribly light and flimsy the hammer fence is, that's no longer the case, it used to be a $$$ option but is now stock) and the perform sub line of hammer saws has the better felder style bearing structure on the sliding table.

For lighter use IMHO the hammer line is fine but I wouldn't want to slam full sized sheets of plywood onto it day in and day out in a production shop.

Both Felder and minimax have active user groups on yahoo, and if your seriously looking at the I would suggest joining and reading some of the archives
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FelderUsers/info
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MiniMax-USA/info

Unsurprisingly the festool owners group has had some interesting discussions of these machines as well
http://www.festoolownersgroup.com (use the search link at the top).

Also both companies have had some long lead times on occasion, I think Felder more so historically, but they've gotten a bit better with a recent factory expansion, but still worth asking (3-4 months seems about usual for US deliveries, I'd hope it would be better there because no ocean to cross and customs would hopefully be simpler, but don't know).
 
Thanks for your explanation Ryan.

After all your advice guys I think that the range is closing on a Hammer K3 or a Minimax SC2 classic which is a new model. I've just asked for a quotation on that. Problably the final cost of both will make the scale tilt one way or the other.

Getting 3 phase 380V is another thing on the list that may be on the scope, as it will affect the motor specs. So I have to get a quotation on that as well, because sooner or later I will need it.

Geez... too many things depending one each other and so intertwined :huh:
 
Toni Ciuraneta said:
Geez... too many things depending one each other and so intertwined :huh:
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:D and it can end up being a real slippery slope as well, don't ask how I know :O

Which K3 were you looking at? I ended up with the 79x48 (which looks about the closest to the sc2), which is nice for some sheet work and straight line ripping, the 48x48 seems somewhat popular with folks who mostly work with smaller solid wood.

Charlie might be able to mention some more but the main advantage I see on the sc2 just looking at the spec sheet is the standard 5/8 arbor (guessing it's the same there?), the additional tooling cost for the special Felder blade spec ( 30mm plus the pin holes) can add up a bit when buying blades (having said that I've been real happy with the tenryu blades I bought, the Felder/hammer blade are nice... once you get them sharpened but from the factory they are pretty suboptimal imho).

4.8 vs 4.0 HP motor, actually probably doesn't matter :) but the spec sounds nice :D

Slightly larger rip capacity on the sc2 (ok 2" so very close).

SC2 comes with the ecentric clamp with is a $$$ option on the hammer (http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-zub-00320/8b-finish-00b-00420/8head-006110), ditto the rip fence micro adjust and scoring blade (which I have but admit to never having used). You might be able to talk your Felder sales Rep into throwing in at lest the clamp. The fence micro adjust looks cool, and I kind of want it just because but haven't really felt the lack.

Somewhat surprisingly to me the hammer is a fair bit heavier (850lbs vs 600lbs). That can go either way I suppose the american in me says heavier is better because I figure that weight went somewhere, hopefully somewhere useful :D.

Also a $$$ option is the lifting bar and rolling carriage, it is worth thinking about how to move either one of these beasts. I sprang for the rolling carriage, but a used pallet jack would be a viable option as well (the hammer at least would want a fairly narrow one to fit between the kegs, unsure on the mm.

Somewhat relevant to both I think is operation of the sliding table, Felder has some fairly nice videos on setup and using it from thier web shop, I suspect that most of it would be relevant to either saw.
http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-009010/8head-016620/hammer-8head-018810-k3-winner-31x48
I think this is one of the main things folks looking to buy a slider should do is really look at the pluses and minuses of the format. The can be quite nice, but there are a couple of downsides as well, so it's worth doing the research to make sure it will work for you, just imho (I don't regret it but it did take some rethinking my thought processes as to how to use a table saw and I still sometimes find myself doing things in a suboptimal way).
 
Ryan Mooney said:
Charlie might be able to mention some more but the main advantage I see on the sc2 just looking at the spec sheet is the standard 5/8 arbor (guessing it's the same there?), the additional tooling cost for the special Felder blade spec ( 30mm plus the pin holes) can add up a bit when buying blades (having said that I've been real happy with the tenryu blades I bought, the Felder/hammer blade are nice... once you get them sharpened but from the factory they are pretty suboptimal imho).
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Thanks Ryan, I didn't know at all that the Hammer blades were special, I will have to find compatible ones from other manufacturers if eventually I choose the K3. Your comment about being suboptimal also worries me.:huh:
 
from what i see in the specs, disreguarding cost i would go with mini max.. if there is a major cost differnce then i would look at what i have to buy to get what is already on the other saw..the specail blades could be a pain.. also you need to lok at how the customer service is.. i know of one guy i can contact for mini max and i am sure charlie can hook you up with some as well.
 
Ryan Mooney said:
...
Charlie might be able to mention some more but the main advantage I see on the sc2 just looking at the spec sheet is the standard 5/8 arbor (guessing it's the same there?), the additional tooling cost for the special Felder blade spec ( 30mm plus the pin holes) can add up a bit when buying blades (having said that I've been real happy with the tenryu blades I bought, the Felder/hammer blade are nice... once you get them sharpened but from the factory they are pretty suboptimal imho).

...

Slightly larger rip capacity on the sc2 (ok 2" so very close).

...
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The North American standard for 10 inch blades is a 5/8 inch arbor. The North American standard for 12 inch blades is a 1 inch arbor. The European standard (I am told) is a 30 mm arbor (1.18 inches), perhaps with the extra pin holes that allow dynamic braking without loosening the arbor nut (like Felder ships to the US). Since my MiniMax has the 5/8 inch arbor (some come with the 1 inch arbor), I have my Forrest 12 inch blades custom made - only a couple dollars more, plus an extra week before they are shipped. Most dado blades have a 5/8 inch arbor hole, but I have only used the Dado on my MiniMax to prove that I could, never for production use.\

The rip capacity is the distance from the rip fence to the blade. However, if you have a sliding table saw you normally set the rip distance on the outrigger of the slider, and do not use the rip fence. Therefore I have routinely ripped far wider than the rip capacity by taking off the rip fence.

Everyone warned me that using a slider would be much different than using a conventional table saw. Two big differences to me... 1) The normal operating position is beside the blade (and pretty far away from the blade) rather than aligned with the blade. 2) The rip fence becomes the least important device on your saw, rather than the most important. To me the transition time was almost zero.
 
Charlie Plesums said:
The North American standard for 10 inch blades is a 5/8 inch arbor. The North American standard for 12 inch blades is a 1 inch arbor. The European standard (I am told) is a 30 mm arbor (1.18 inches), perhaps with the extra pin holes that allow dynamic braking without loosening the arbor nut (like Felder ships to the US). Since my MiniMax has the 5/8 inch arbor (some come with the 1 inch arbor), I have my Forrest 12 inch blades custom made - only a couple dollars more, plus an extra week before they are shipped. Most dado blades have a 5/8 inch arbor hole, but I have only used the Dado on my MiniMax to prove that I could, never for production use.\
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Yep that matches up with my understanding. When pricing blades the pin holes were what really added to the base cost, the larger bore didn't matter as much (my festool saw takes a 30mm blade as well so some apples to apples plus holes comparison). Don't know what's available in Spain tooling wise but was thinking that it might be worth checking the differences if any since that can add a couple $$$ to the cost depending.

The hammer only takes a 7" dado because of the trunnion hardware which means either a 6" or the $$$$ Felder grooving system. I suspect that dado tooling probably isn't even offered as an option where Toni is though (but would be interested to hear either way).

Replacing the throat plate on the hammer is.. interesting, I made a bunch from poplar but there is a fair bit of machining to get them to fit properly. The stock plate has a fair bit of a gap, which helps the first collection but isn't so good for thin strips since they can get pulled in, so I replace it when cutting a bunch of those. Would be interesting to hear how the MM works there.

I'd agree with Charlie that the slider use is mostly a headspace issue, his was clearly more easily aligned than mine is :D. My biggest challenge was ripping thin pieces; the Hans&Franz setup (that I believe Charlie linked to from here a few months back) is a good solution. Mostly the rip fence is used now by me pulled back behind the blade as a bump stop (the outrigger makes the most fantastic mitre saw).
 
Ryan Mooney said:
The hammer only takes a 7" dado because of the trunnion hardware which means either a 6" or the $$$$ Felder grooving system. I suspect that dado tooling probably isn't even offered as an option where Toni is though (but would be interested to hear either way).

.
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The standard arbor here as I have found is 30mm, and as per the dado accesory they have two optional possibilities, what they call an incisor blades1.jpg, which I do not know what it is used for, and the dado ones2.jpg. See pics attached. Both can be mounted on the K3. Although I do not think I'm going to make many dadoes or so I think.
 
The incisor blade is what we call a scoring blade. It is for cutting sheet goods with a finished surface, or plywood. Its purpose is to score (shallow cut) the material before the 'real' blades around to cutting the material. The benefit is to not have chip out or tear out. If you are not doing those things, it really is not necessary and many people with them lower them out of way for solid wood cuts. They are fussy (or used to be back when I was teaching) to maintain the proper cut. Just deep enough to do the job and not so deep as to burn the material or overheat the blade.
 
Carol Reed said:
The incisor blade is what we call a scoring blade. It is for cutting sheet goods with a finished surface, or plywood. Its purpose is to score (shallow cut) the material before the 'real' blades around to cutting the material. The benefit is to not have chip out or tear out. If you are not doing those things, it really is not necessary and many people with them lower them out of way for solid wood cuts. They are fussy (or used to be back when I was teaching) to maintain the proper cut. Just deep enough to do the job and not so deep as to burn the material or overheat the blade.
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Thanks a lot for the info Carol, that's what I thought it was for but I wasn't sure. I also have problems in finding the right english names for some parts of machines, but I'm learning fast ;)
 
You are welcome, Toni. Glad I could help. Hope you find what you want. At a price you are willing to pay. And space to play with it safely.
 
Toni Ciuraneta said:
The dado oneView attachment 86163. See pics attached. Both can be mounted on the K3. Although I do not think I'm going to make many dadoes or so I think.
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When I priced those they cost almost as much as a cabinet type table saw would here in the US (more than most used), I bought a dado set from Forrest (6" dia instead of the 7" the hammer/felder of which is the very biggest grooving blade you can put on without hitting some hardware; regular blades can be up to 300mm/12") which wasn't cheap either but was a whole lot less than the Felder one. In order to support the dado tooling you need to order the hammer saws with an "extended arbor" (Preparation for Dado tooling up to ¾” - is how it's listed on the website) which is a factory option and can't be retrofit on later, that's now (again according to the website) a standard option on saws shipped to the US, but I don't know if it is over there or not, it might be since the US is such a large part of the market it would probably make sense to make them all the same. There is another part you put over the saw blade to clamp it down (basically an oversized washer) that is different for regular blades and dado blades as well (the regular one is thicker and then there is a thinner one for the thicker dado tooling as well as two different lengths of bolts). The plethora of options on the hammer tools can be a bit confusing (for example there are a number of crosscut fence type accessories and I'm still not sure about some of them).

I have the option for the incisor/scoring blade but have never put a blade on it :D. It came stock on the package deal I got otherwise I probably wouldn't have gotten it. For normal plywood I get basically tear out free cuts with the blade I bought from tenryu (the Felder blade as shipped wasn't as clean), I could see it being useful if you were cutting a bunch of melamine or maybe prefinished plywood or were doing a lot of euro style cabinetry with no face frames to hide any small oops. For solid wood is not really useful.
 
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