giving others the oppertunity

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I posted this on the bow fourm I been involved with , thought I'd share a little about a group I started a couple of years ago.

talked it over with the guys in the group , well almost all of them and this looks promising to be a good deal for who it is intended to be for. Recently the past 2 years Jarrod and I have picked up some very good neighborhoods and 3 nice ones this year alone to hunt and have added 4 more hunters to our list. Now I am opening the hunts up to the handy cap because we have many properties that are wheel chair accessible plus offering the Wounded Warier the opportunity to get out and hunt. Each hunter is provided a personal guide to assist them in retrieving and dealing with the deer. Once the deer is taken in we bring them back to the shop and butcher it up for them.
I have been giving hunting privileges to the servicemen for many years now, but now I feel a obligation to share in what the Lord has given me. So I give back to those who defend our freedom. Last year we took a wounded warier out who was shot in the back of the head and suffered greatly, He spent a year and a half at WR here in DC . I was asked if I would take him on a hunt and I agreed. The young man showed up and asked how many deer can I shot I asked him how many arrows to you have. Well that afternoon the Solder took 3 does home. We butchered them up and packed them for his trip home to Wisconsin. He said he it was the best time he has had in a long time. I was so moved by his story.
I feel privileged to be able to offer these hunts.<br>CCWhitetail has offered to video hunts when he has the time and Jarrod is hounding me for a video camera so he can shoot the hunts also.* Help us make this work guys. If you know a hunter that could use a good hunt or a wounded warier who like to to get out for a hunt PM me and I will see about making this happen.*
 
Haven't those people been exposed to enough killing, suffering and pain. Why would they want to inflict the same on animals?

Mike
 
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LOL you make me laugh Mike thanks its been a long day. Mike its not about you or what you think but what others would like to do , what gives them pleasure. Sharing in a hunt and talking with likeinded hunters is what its all about , it a deer is taken that's a bonus .
 
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I have been asked to edit my posts to better explain my position and to nuance my position. I'm going to try to do that here.

My basic argument consists of the following two parts: (I'll explain them more below)

1. One of the significant attractions of hunting is the exaltation of the kill, and,
2. My belief is that killing an animal for that exaltation is immoral.

Let me expand:

Why do I believe that a significant attraction of hunting is the kill?

1. I have hunted in the past and I know how I reacted.
2. I have spoken with many, many hunters who have described to me their reaction when they made a kill.
3. This last reason is based just on logic. The cost of hunting is significant. If people just wanted to to obtain meat, there are many less expensive ways to do so. And if they just wanted to be in the the wild, there are many ways to do so without killing an animal. I conclude, therefore, that the killing of the animal is a significant part of the attraction of hunting.

Why do I believe that killing for that exaltation is immoral?
I believe that life is sacred, both man and animal, and should only be taken when absolutely necessary. And when it is taken, it should be taken with regret - not joy.
[Let me nuance this just a bit. I would not regret the execution of a murderer. But I would not take joy in the execution, either. I would regret the killing of a mountain lion who killed a hiker because the lion was just doing what lions do. So a better statement is that I'd regret the taking of any innocent life.]

Now, given that explanation, let me edit the rest of this post.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
There are many valid and reasonable reasons to kill an animal. Cattleman kill beef cows for meat. Poultry farmers kill chickens for food and because layers quit laying. A sick animal is put down to save it from terminal pain. A vicious dog is put down to prevent it from hurting other animals or people. I could go on and on.

The difference between those killings and hunting is that they are done by necessity. My objection to hunting is explained above.

If your pleasure really comes from being together with other people in the woods, please go hiking with a group of friends.

Mike

[It's ironic that wounded warriors would want to kill animals. You would think their wounds, and the suffering that resulted, would give them empathy, even for animals.]
 
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My gosh, here we go again :doh:


Dave. I think that's great. You have a big heart. Giving back to those that have sacrificed so much for our country is a great idea. I would love to see pictures of the smiles on their faces.
 
Mike a lot of my friends , like minded about hunting. Like to eat Venison. It is no fat count to speak of and my doctor says I can eat all I want with jumping my cloistral up one bit. You don't like venison I can appreciate that, I don't like eating mountain deer they taste gamie. But don't judge other for what they like. As far as I see the ultimate judge has not given His tidal over to you.
 
Excellent work Dave. :thumb: I'm hoping to get my shop to the point to help out with something like Wounded Warriors where I can maybe do some mentoring in woodworking, welding, and such too.
 
Mike, I hear your opinion and isn't it great we live in a country that has had people and will have people that live and die for our right to disagree on such a simple subject of hunting. You have focused solely on the kill portion of the hunt. To true hunters I would venture to say the kill isn't the complete focus. Appreciating the wonderful out of doors, scenery, life, fresh air, companionship with like minded people and solitude are the biggest factors for me when hunting. Some of those sound contradicting but it is true, I greatly enjoy getting ready with my daughter, son in law, brother but then getting in my stand alone. I have not hunted this year for many reasons, mainly I do not have the extra time available that would allow me to sit in a stand and appreciate all the wonders. I am not trying to convince you, sway your opinion, I am just telling you from my standpoint and many hunters why we do what we do. Also, another contradictory fact, hard cold fact, due to hunters and money the state obtains from licenses, we now at the present time enjoy some of the best hunting and populations of wild game due to our efforts and the game commissions efforts. Hunting is indeed a needed item in the control of wildgame. Our Department of Natural Resources figures in hunter population and keeps quality records and determines the number of tags to make available.

Dave, we have a young man in our area that has Lou Gerigs disease. His family started a hunting event called Turkey Tracks for disabled hunters in the spring for turkeys. This year they have expanded it for deer also. They had a wheelchair from someone available for two hunters that were paralyzed from the neck down, blow through a tube and it went off, one got a turkey this spring. This kind of thing takes dedication beyond imagination. Many of the guys that guide give up their best hunting areas to these kids so that a kid/person can actually harvest a turkey or deer. My hat is off to you Dave, if you are in need of a fundraiser or if I can be of help, last time in Michigan Tom Neimi gave me some Jarrah pen blanks, would be willing to turn a few for you and your endeavors. Or if you have surplus antler, could turn some antler pens for your deer hunters. Let me know. Good for you my friend.
 
Jonathan, I think you've nailed it there! I don't hunt but have a few times and enjoyed it. The part I enjoyed the most was simply being in a tree, blind or just walking trying to scare up birds. I've eaten just about everything that's available as game in the area and quite a bit that comes from other parts of the country and world. I know some don't think hunting, or killing as they would call it, is something that is needed, but I see it no different than woodworking. Trees are harvested no differently than a deer, elk, turkey or squirrel are. The result of that harvesting gives someone an outlet to enjoy life in a way that gives them joy and in the end something worth while. (meat, hide, a table, cabinet or bowl)

And Dave, good on you!! :thumb:
 
Mike, I hear your opinion and isn't it great we live in a country that has had people and will have people that live and die for our right to disagree on such a simple subject of hunting. You have focused solely on the kill portion of the hunt. To true hunters I would venture to say the kill isn't the complete focus. Appreciating the wonderful out of doors, scenery, life, fresh air, companionship with like minded people and solitude are the biggest factors for me when hunting. Some of those sound contradicting but it is true, I greatly enjoy getting ready with my daughter, son in law, brother but then getting in my stand alone. I have not hunted this year for many reasons, mainly I do not have the extra time available that would allow me to sit in a stand and appreciate all the wonders. I am not trying to convince you, sway your opinion, I am just telling you from my standpoint and many hunters why we do what we do. Also, another contradictory fact, hard cold fact, due to hunters and money the state obtains from licenses, we now at the present time enjoy some of the best hunting and populations of wild game due to our efforts and the game commissions efforts. Hunting is indeed a needed item in the control of wildgame. Our Department of Natural Resources figures in hunter population and keeps quality records and determines the number of tags to make available.

Dave, we have a young man in our area that has Lou Gerigs disease. His family started a hunting event called Turkey Tracks for disabled hunters in the spring for turkeys. This year they have expanded it for deer also. They had a wheelchair from someone available for two hunters that were paralyzed from the neck down, blow through a tube and it went off, one got a turkey this spring. This kind of thing takes dedication beyond imagination. Many of the guys that guide give up their best hunting areas to these kids so that a kid/person can actually harvest a turkey or deer. My hat is off to you Dave, if you are in need of a fundraiser or if I can be of help, last time in Michigan Tom Neimi gave me some Jarrah pen blanks, would be willing to turn a few for you and your endeavors. Or if you have surplus antler, could turn some antler pens for your deer hunters. Let me know. Good for you my friend.
Of course, if the enjoyment is in being outdoors and enjoying nature, you can do that by hiking, camping, or other forms of outdoor recreation. I've had some really great times on hiking trips with friends.

The reason we have to manage wildlife is that the higher predators have been eliminated. And I don't advocate re-introducing them because they could prey on livestock or even small humans. But managing wildlife through hunting has its disadvantages.

Let me use fish as an example. We're finding, especially in limited water areas, that mature fish are getting smaller. The reason is because of rules that require release of fish smaller than the standard. So the larger fish are removed from the gene pool. Fish that are naturally smaller survive to mate and the offspring are smaller each generation.

If we want to manage mammals, we need to mimic the natural predation. That is, it would be better to have game employees constantly hunting the animals but taking the young, the old, the sick and the injured - not the largest and healthiest.

However, I realize that hunting brings too much revenue into the state's coffers to reverse the existing situation.

Mike
 
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Mike,

You've repeatedly made your opinion known on this subject.

I have no problem with your opinion on hunting.

What I do take exception to is the insulting and derogatory way in which you express it.
 
Mike, you are spot on with your intuition about predators. Actually if you talk to some ranchers out West, they are seeing a larger predator population also with regulations on their ability to kill them.

25 years ago I would have had to agree with you on the theory of natural selection being upside down with regards to hunting. Fishing, specifically bass fishing, tremendous bass opportunities are available due to their tournies and education. The mounting of fish has gone to using photos and measurements and they can replicate the fish exactly. Thus the trophy fish is released.
Deer and turkey hunting are changing also in that does are now hunted and doe tags are determined by herd size and past hunt numbers harvested. Some states have gone to a dual tag, must take an antlerless deer before a buck. Food plots, bedding areas all the things sportsmen and women do in the off season to increase their chances, increase the survivability of the deer, increase the size of their deer have increased the numbers and quality of deer available to all.
I am not trying to change your mind. I enjoy the out of doors in many ways other than the one or two moments of the actual kill. And through thousands of like minded men, women and children, this opportunity of wildgame and hunting is available for all, be it guns, cameras, binoculars, or what ever means.
 
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