HF I.R. heater OK for shop?

Hi All,

I have a Rain Check for a HF infrared LP gas heater. The heater was $60 on sale for $38. It is 15,000 BTU. Is this adequate to use in mild winter weather in a 24 x 30 shop? The roof is on a slope from roughly 10' to 17' with no insulation. It has 2 one-car garage doors.

The garage is built in true So. Calif. style---or to put it another way, you could throw out the cat through the gaps by and under the garage doors. I am also built in the true So. Calif. style. I don't like hot weather but I do work in it. However when it gets cold I become totally useless.

I do work in the shop in cold weather wearing thermal underwear and it is almost OK. I hate the thermals. I feel like I am a bull-fighter spending an hour robing up for the big event. I would prefer heat and warm clothes.

I could run ducts off from the forced air unit that supplies the house (actually we use it about 10 minutes per year. We heat with efficient wood stoves). I have removed the fresh air input from the garage, but I hesitate to let the shop have any interaction with the house air, even on the exhaust side.

I assume that it would not be a great idea to do finishing with the IR heat. I am sure it would not be a good idea with blown air.

Enjoy,

Jim
 
I have a Rain Check for a HF infrared LP gas heater. The heater was $60 on sale for $38. It is 15,000 BTU. Is this adequate to use in mild winter weather in a 24 x 30 shop? The roof is on a slope from roughly 10' to 17' with no insulation. It has 2 one-car garage doors.

In a word...no.

I have one in my shop as well, one that installed after my bigger propane furnance died. I think you will be sorely disappointed, beyond that you are going to waste a lot of propane and not get much heat out of it.

I say this not to trump your good fortunate and inexpensive heater, but because it's just not big enough. My shop is only 12 x 24 and is well insulated. When I say well I mean the bottom is banked with haybales outside, the walls have R-19 insulation, the ceiling has an R-38 factor, and every possible draft is blocked with "Great Stuff" to keep the cold Maine winters at bay. Even as tight as my shop is, that heater won't keep up with anything below 25º. Even if I run the thing the night before to "build the heat up", anything below 25º and its just to cold to work in there.

Adding insult to injury is the amount of fuel this thing consumes. Even at 25º outside temps, the thing burns 7-10% of fuel a weekend. Since I am trying to heat my shop, the things burns the same fuel if its 40º outside or if its -40º outside, it just means the heater has no way to recover the heat that is lost at that temp. Now imagine a bigger space, unheated. Granted most peoples shops are located in more fair weather climates than Maine, but still 20º is 20º, and twice a big of a space at 40º uninsulated means just about the same thing. I doubt this heater would do much for you.

The final insult of this heater is the fact that it produces an amazing amount of moisture. Not only does this heater NOT heat my shop, all it does is pump in moisture when it is running. Its a double whammy because when the temps dip to 20º, and my heater has no way to keep up, my tools really begin to rust. Firing up the heater only makes my shop tools rust that much quicker.

I will say however, I do plan on keeping the heater. I want to replace my shop heater with a bigger heater then use the smaller one for my snowmobile shed. That is only 8 x 12 so the heater should keep up with that small space.

Sorry to be the one to deliver the bad news.

If I was you, and you already are allowed to use wood heat in an outbuilding (my insurance company says no way), then I would consider adding a woodstove to your shop. I can't say for sure because woodstoves really depend on a ton of factors based on a case by case basis.
 
I am not disputing Travis cause I have never seen one. But there is a lot of difference in Maine and SoCal. There are online heat loss calculators and you can figure out the heat load (amount of BTU's) for your garage.
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let us now take a moment to pity poor Jim! He lives in Oceanside, of all places, where the cold Japan Current sweeps along the Pacific coast and makes winter an absolute misery! Why, the average high temperature in January goes all the way down to 68 degrees! It's a recipe for a nightmare of shivering! And the average low! Horrors! It can get down to 40 degrees! Unfit for human habitation, it's so frigid! ;)

If you don't believe me, look at this chart, it tells a terrifying tale of ice age like conditions:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCA0797?from=36hr_bottomnav_undeclared

There are places nearby that have Never, in recorded history, Never experienced even a light frost! ;)

But it gets worse: Jim cannot have a woodstove. Fuel is too expensive, too polluting, it makes a mess, and leads to yucky things, like, say, fires. He doesn't need to worry about moisture: if humidity hits 20% there, residents start complaining about the oppressive misery. Kerosene would do. Or propane. My father worked for SDG&E, so I need to recuse myself on the subject of electric.

What Jim needs is a little radiant heat, for a little while in the morning, while he sips his coffee and wonders what a man should build when he has a workshop in paradise... ;)

Thanks,

Bill
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let us now take a moment to pity poor Jim! He lives in Oceanside, of all places, where the cold Japan Current sweeps along the Pacific coast and makes winter an absolute misery! Why, the average high temperature in January goes all the way down to 68 degrees! It's a recipe for a nightmare of shivering! And the average low! Horrors! It can get down to 40 degrees! Unfit for human habitation, it's so frigid! ;)

If you don't believe me, look at this chart, it tells a terrifying tale of ice age like conditions:

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCA0797?from=36hr_bottomnav_undeclared

There are places nearby that have Never, in recorded history, Never experienced even a light frost! ;)

But it gets worse: Jim cannot have a woodstove. Fuel is too expensive, too polluting, it makes a mess, and leads to yucky things, like, say, fires. He doesn't need to worry about moisture: if humidity hits 20% there, residents start complaining about the oppressive misery. Kerosene would do. Or propane. My father worked for SDG&E, so I need to recuse myself on the subject of electric.

What Jim needs is a little radiant heat, for a little while in the morning, while he sips his coffee and wonders what a man should build when he has a workshop in paradise... ;)

Thanks,

Bill

I am confused...

If Jim does not need much heat where he lives, then why does he have a wood stove in his house and forced hot air? I realize he lives in Southern California but he asked if the heater would heat his shop...

I have one of these heaters, it won't. His shop cubic footage is to big even if it does not get very cold, and its not insulated at all.

The simple rule of thumb for heating is pretty simple. If a certain sized heater is sufficient for a insulated area, double it if it is uninsulated. My shop is half his size and insulated and the heater won't keep up. If his shop is double my shop size, AND uninsulated, that means he would need a heater four times as big as mine. Now subtract some for his warm climate he lives in and you still end up with a too small heater. By the time this heater would heat such a big uninsulated space, the clock would say 2 PM and he would be better off opening the garage doors and letting the warm air outside come inside.

The long and short of it is, to heat such a big, uninsulated space fast, you need BTU's and 15,000 btus just isn't going to do it. Now if he ran his propane heater all night, that might keep things in check, but this model loves its propane. I think there are more efficient heaters out there and he will be happier with those.
 
I have a home in Southern Calif w/ no shop, and a newly built home in Northern California. I studied heating/air condition issues to design the new house.

For your size garage (with no insulation) 15,000 btu's is fine for So. Cal.
My shop up north -where we get two weeks of snow -- for 600 feet I have a 14,000 btu electric heater (220 volts). Cost $130 at Ace Hardware. The heater achieves a temperature rise from --say --- 45 degrees to 60 degrees within 10 minutes. It is insulated to the newer California energy standards.

The magic formula for houses that are insulated is: 25btu's/ft-sq. For an uninsulated structure in a mild climate, bump that up 50%. For a colder cllmate, increase it 250%.

My neighbor has a new 900sq feet shop heated only with one large infrared propane heater. The kind used in aircraft hangars. I think it is about 25,000 btu's. Positively toasty.

Caution. With either my electric, or your propane, blow out the heating elements with a blast of air after every work session. Fire is a real hazard. And you must have ventilation in the workspace.

Gary Curtis
 
If you don't believe me, look at this chart, it tells a terrifying tale of ice age like conditions:

Now wait a minute, Bill. I live in SoCal too. I've got to tell you that for safety's sake I change out of my shorts and sandles on a blustery winter morning. The idea of heading into a shop that might be somewhere in the mid 50's without shoes and long pants on is just too traumatic to handle :rofl:.

Paradise it may be but take heart . . . some of you don't have to chew your air. There's just no free lunch dag-nab-it. Pity us poor multi-generational SoCal natives that are reaching for a sweatshirt when it gets below 60. We're handicapped by being raised with the notion that snow is something you visit for fun. When you're done you go home . . . or to the beach :).

P.s. One of my favorite things to do on Christmas morning is to call someone in Michigan and ask, "how's the weather?" I know, too cruel.
 
Well.....there are a few myths about weather, temps and locality.

Here in northcentral Idaho.......

We get some cold weather. In some winters we actually get snow. Of course at an elevation of about 1100' above sea level, Lewiston often doesn't see it every winter. But at the same time, we experience about 3-4 weeks of 100+ºF each summer and we only get 12" of moisture annualy provided we are not in a drought which we are. This year we've had less than 5" of total moisture with May and June being our "wet" months.

That being said, I insulated my new shop....R-19 in the walls and R-40 in the ceilings. It's often 18-24º F cooler in the hot weeks and the LOML bought and had installed a Lennox 75,000 BTU natural gas furnace 2 years ago. I set the thermostat at 60º most of the time and move it as necessary.

Insulating just makes sense wherever you live IMHO.
 
Hi Glenn,

I like your new avatar...It's a real improvement.

You forgot to tell everybody that you take the cold better than your old man. You worked for years in computer rooms at 65 degrees and you learned to do it in short sleeve cotton shirt and shorts. Well, dang it, as I have aged, cold has become more of a problem and it was a problem before I became old.

Enjoy,

Dad
 
Hi Again,

I hate to tell you all, but at 40 degrees I freeze my buns off. The furnace in this house is 21 years old and still on the original filter because we heat with wood. There are years that the furnace does not run at all.

Yes we do have two efficient woodstoves. The stove that Myrna used to heat her office has not been used for several years because she is no longer in there when it is cold. The other stove knocks the chill off most mornings when it is cold. It is also used 2 or 3 hours in the evening on cold days. So far this year it has not been needed.

HOWEVER, on the few occasions that it gets down to the 40s I just cannot function. There is no way I would run a power tool when it is that cold. I frequently gets down into the 50s in the winter. In the 50s I can work if I can keep my hands warm. I wear thermal underwear.

There are evenings and maybe a couple days that I just won't go to the shop because it is too cold. I thought a radiant (IR) heater might do the job. I have never seen one except in a store so I just don't know. I have not looked at the price of putting in a ceiling and insulation. I seriously doubt that it would be cost effective for me.

Normally I would just put in a ceiling and insulation. However, my body just does not go into a lot of positions that it used to. Myrna says I should act my age (82 on Dec 31, twenty minutes before January). I resent it but I am having to act a bit like an old man.

Change of subject. I purchased firewood one time since 1978. People far and near know I heat with wood so I get a call something like, "We are cutting down two euclyptus trees. Do you want the wood?" I answer yes and say dump it on the driveway. I use a little over a chord each year.

The wood is free if you don't count having to chainsaw it into lengths shorter than 18" and the having to split it. Until this year I split using wedges and sledge hammer. I purchased a log splitter from HF and it is a dream.

This has become so wordy that I am going to sign off. I hope I answered all of the queries about wood, heat and me. I will look up the thermal formulaes and see what I can see. I may check out with a contractor about ceiling and insulation.

Thanks all and Enjoy,

Jim
 
As a non-native Californian, I've seen several sides of cold weather. Growing up in northern and central New Mexico (at anywhere from 5200 feet to about 7300 feet above sea level), I had plenty of experience with sub-zero weather and snow. Generally, it was a dry cold, though. I was fairly well acclimated to it, even when I was working outdoors a lot. 40 to 50 degrees was jacket weather but it was not uncomfortable.

When I first moved to the left coast, I was surprised how cold 50 degrees felt here compared to back home in New Mexico. I suspect it's the extra humidity, and less UV radiation due to the lower altitude, but it's definitely easier for me to handle 40 - 50 degrees in New Mexico than in California. Even though I've been here for 16+ years, there's still a difference in how a specific temperature feels between the two places. LOML has the same observation.

Even since I broke my back I've been more sensitive to cold than ever before. Dunno if it's age or the result of leftover nerve goings-on, but I've turned into a real lightweight when it comes to cold now. :eek:

BTW, I use a little portable electric radiant heater in my uninsulated garage shop. It's enough to take the chill off, but I wouldn't want to try to heat the place to 68 degrees with it.
 
Good golly, you guys talk like Souhern California and Maine have drastically different climates or something. :)

Just wanted everyone to know that it seems I was way off base on this one. I apologize to all of you and to especially to Jim. I honestly thought that heater would not work for you, but it appears that it will.

If any of you want to come to Maine and Tar and Feather me, I will allow that. Just wear some warm clothes, as you admit you hate it "when it gets down to 50º". Well right now it would have to get UP to 50º (averaging around 40º during the day) and as I type this, its in the mid-twenties this morning. As we say in Maine, that is cold enough to make soft water hard!!
 
Travis

I know Maine is beautiful (from the pictures) but if I ever go there it will be when trees are green or changing color. My personal idea of Hell is not fire and brimstone but snow and everything covered in white.

As a loyal So. Calif. boy I shouldn't say this, however, the beautiful aspects of changing seasons and snow do make me jealous. However, not jealous enough to die of frost bite in order to experience it.

By the way, I did go up in the mountains into the snow a couple times when I was in high school. I have actually seen it first-hand.

Enjoy,

Jim
 
What and miss this Jim? If I look cold, I assure you...I was :)

Windy_Tractor.JPG
 
Jim.....at age 82.....You have earned the right to use as much heat as your heart and body desire!

My congrats to you to be that active at your age!

Ken
 
Well I haven't seen it mentioned here but the main point of an IR system is to heat things not spaces. And at that I have found the IR heaters that go on top of a propane bottle very effective. I have on one of the round ones and I point it at me when working in my cool to cold garage and it makes thing much more bearable. And it warms the tools that are being radiated on up very nicely. If you really want to heat the whole shop you need to get some type of blue flame or forced air heating device. At least that has been my experence. Something that moves the heated air around thru convection or with the aid of a fan would heat the whole shop much better. And yes the IR would be great for finishing as long as it was pointed at it. In a moderate climate you might point the IR source at a large black mass and let it re-radiate in all directions.


Garry
 
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I think that Garry has the main point. I have a large completely open to the world space that it would be economic madness to try and heat. I use a small electric radiant "patio" heater which is pointed at me while I am doing the only job that needs me to be warm enough that my hands work fluidly (chair assembly). It heats me very nicely thank you and I could not care less about the rest of the air in the shop. The rest of the time I wear lots of thermal underwear!!
 
Jim,
I'm in Northeast Ohio, and winter temps are generally in the high 'teens ~ twenties during the December - March time frame.

My shop is a bit bigger than yours, at 26" X 34", with 10 foot ceilings. It's insulated R-13 in the walls, and R-30 in the ceiling, but has two 9' garage doors on the South facing side. The garage doors aren't very well insulated.

For heat, I have a 35,000 Btu natural gas radiant heater, mounted high up on the North wall, near one end. It's on a timer-thermostat that keeps the shop at 65° during the day, and sets back to 50° at night. The heater keeps the shop very comfortable, and last year it cost me about $40.00 per month for the heat.

This will be the third winter using it, and I've experience none of the moisture problems that others have mentioned. The natural gas radiant is quiet, reliable, and economical. It keeps my shop nice and comfortable.

For SoCal, in a shop like yours, it'd be less efficient - due to your lack of air-tightnes and lack of insulation, but you'd only be using the heater to bring the temp up a few degrees - not the twenty to forty degree rise that I need.

The propane will likely be more expensive than natural gas, but it shouldn't cost you all that much to provide your little heat boost from time-to-time. You'd probably only need to turn the heater on maybe half an hour or so before you want to work out there, and maybe a boost or two during the day. A fifteen dollar tank of propane should last you a couple weeks at that rate.

I'd go for it.
 
Thanks for the reminder that it is getting to be about time to take the glues and other water based things down to the heated basement for the season.

If anyone needs help acclimating to their own "cold" home shops, I'll ask my wife if we can put you up in our unheated garage for a week or two in January. You'd be welcome to use the machinery as much as you wanted, just please take the glue back downstairs when you're done. :wave:

And, just to keep you honest about getting the full experience of a modest winter (I just can't compete with Travis here), our two viscous ankle-biters will make sure you don't come inside! :rofl:
 
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