Future Car

They are building wind generating plants here in several locations...huge windmills, and ordinarily I think that is good. The problem is, they are being built by the major power producers in the mid-west states. I know the mid-west states have to have power,and lack the numerous rivers that we have here in New England, still this green-credit thing gets me.

We have high levels of mercury in our water because of these mid-west coal plants. Pregnant women, infants and children are not supposed to eat fresh water fish because of the mercury.

Still these windplants owned by mid-west power companies will allow them to get green-credits so they don't have to retro fit their existing power plants to pump out less pollution. Its frustrating for us because we pay high electrical rates here...some of the highest in the country at 15 cents a kw...while the mid-westerners pay far less but don't have to live with the pollution that economy gives them.

Two windmill projects have gone through, but far more have been knocked down by Mainer's who want the madness to stop.

The LOML and I were watching a show on alternative energy, and one of the features was about a local windmill farm. I was pleasantly surprised that we have been getting our energy from that farm for a couple of years now. Filtered through the grid, but it is the source our dollars are paying the grid for.

We have deregulated power here, so for awhile you could chose plans based on where and how the power is produced. For instance you could go with a higher cost, but greater percentage of "green power", or go with the lower cost "regular power." Now I say lower cost because as I said at 15 cents a kw, it is hardly low.

At the same time, there was no way to distinguish green power from say coal power once it hits the grid, so in effect you were paying more money just to entice companies to have green power facilities.

No one went for it, instead opting for the lowest cost possible. So now they just send you a brochure every year of what percentage of your power comes from. A lot of it here is hydro power anyway because of the numerous rivers we have. Its kind of odd but Maine's biggest export is not actually wood and forest products, but electricity. The Southern New England states have so few power plants,and such a high demand that they suck it out of our state. That makes our power valuable...more to them then us, so it drives our cost up.

Right now the Maine PUC is thinking of changing that though. The Prime Minister of Canada was in Maine this week and it looks like Maine is going to rid itself of the New England Power Grid and join the New Brunswick power grid. They are building a new nuclear power plant and a HUGE hydro dam so they are looking for a market. At half 8 cents a KW, we will come out ahead.

So why would anyone on here care about all this? Well its just that you can make a difference. Everyone in any given state has a HUGE stake in PUC decisions (Public Utility Commissions) since power companies have monopolies on power. Having high or low power rates greatly effects the economy and even household budgets. Right now my electric hot water heater is the enemy, and propane hot water heating is cost effective. If the electrical rate drops by half though, the tide could change.

I write a lot of letters to the Maine PUC and Dept of Energy to let them know that some of us are watching their actions. Until I go completely Neanderthal, it only makes sense.

deregulated

The whole deregulation thing was a huge mistake.

Deregulate Phone Companies - Yes

Deregulate Power Companies - No

Phone Systems - If one provider in Ohio will charge $0.01 per month for full service then everyone would choose to use them over the $35 per month option. Could that Ohio company deliver the goods - maybe. To a large extent it is just a matter of installing more computers and equipment to handle the load. These equipment upgrades are small compared to building a new power plant.

Power Generation Company - Again the plant in Ohio will sell power at $0.01 per KWH. I am sure everyone would sign up with them as opposed to their current $0.10 -$0.18 per KWH. Can they supply power at that rate to everyone? NO WAY! They may have 300 megawatts and that is it. In our present condition we us just about every watt generated by anybody. So to think we could all buy from the lowest price supplier is a mistake. On top of this problem you also need to add in transmission losses. That only makes it worse.

But I do love deregulation - thanks to it I was able to retire early and do wood and laser work in Florida.

Pumped Storage

Mike- Some info on stored energy.

Google Northfield Mountain to learn more.

I have been in this site, incredable to know it was carved out of granite.

Also as I understand it - it is a very inefficient way to operate, as is just about any type of storage system. The good news for this site is the local Nuke plants in Connecticut can use their power at low demand times (night time ) to pump the water to the top of the mountain.

It does alter the water level in a section of the Ct River. Maybe as much as 5 - 10 feet. I do not recall the correct numbers. The trade off for this was the utility installed a number of recreation areas along that part of the river. These are not just a parking spot and a park bench. They have made some very nice areas for the public to use which include (if I remember correctly ) watercraft, bike, ped, horse trails and more.

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When the Northfield Mountain pumped-storage hydroelectric plant went into commercial service in 1972, it was the largest facility of its kind in the world. Located in Northfield, Massachusetts, approximately five and one-half miles up the Connecticut River from Turners Falls Dam, the 1,080 megawatt plant is entirely underground and does not depend upon the natural flow of the river for operation. Utilizing energy that is generated at nuclear and the more efficient of our fossil plants, water from the lower reservoir is pumped to an upper reservoir during periods of low power demand. The water is stored in the upper reservoir and then, at times of high electric demand, is released down a 1,100-foot-long pressure shaft to power a turbine generator and continues to the lower reservoir where it is stored until it again resumes its cycle to the upper reservoir.

The 20-mile stretch of the Connecticut River, extending from the dam at Turners Falls north to the Vernon Dam in Vermont, serves as the station's lower reservoir.

The man-made 300-acre upper reservoir, 800 feet above the river, is capable of storing 5.6 billion gallons of water.

The underground powerhouse includes four large reversible turbines, each capable of pumping about 20,000 gallons of water per second and generating 270,000 kilowatts of electricity. The powerhouse is accessible through a 2,500-foot-long tunnel. Seven hundred feet below the surface, the cavern is longer than a football field and higher than a ten-story building.

Billy Burt said:

Contrary to popular opinion, being on television does not make you intelligent.

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True, but these days, being on television does make the females blond.

The problem with alternatives is that sometimes the balance can be so easily tipped, especially in this day of global markets. No where is that more evident then in agriculture. One thing my family has been hit hard with, is the new bio-diesel resurgence.

Here in Maine we do not grow grain so we must get it by the railroad car loads from the midwest. With ethanol really taking off, the grain price has just soared. So has fuel costs,and with it, the price of milk. Its over 5 bucks a gallon right now. For the farmer that is 24 bucks a hundred weight, or about 1.92 a gallon for his milk.When I was a kid and milking cows, we got around 12 dollars a hundred weight. and about 80 cents a gallon.

For us its not to bad. We are NOT organic farmers so the grain bill is very low. Its further reduced by a dairy cow nutritionist that comes in every month and some other uses of fodder that keeps our grain costs down. For the organic farmer though, where they have to buy grain that is not grown with efficiency or modern fertilizers, they pay a high price, and dole more of it out to their cows to boot. Its killing them.

Its starting to hit the human food chain too. Have you seen the price of cereals lately? Its gone through the roof, and here is the kicker. Gleaning ethanol from corn is not a very efficient system. There are better crops to do this.

Now I realize that bio-diesel and ethanol is part of the answer, but I don't think people realize there can be such a ripple effect to these new green alternatives. Personally I hope this is just a glitch in the world grain market. I have a huge amount of faith in the American farmer. Back in the 1980's they were so successful that they were growing such abundant amounts of food,that the price for it, was less then what it cost to grow it. Maybe we can put some of the fallow land to back into making grains and corn?

Pete Simmons said:

Travis - I agree that grid power is very cheap to buy. That is actually the downfall of many alternate energy deals at this time.

I know there are huge losses in every step of the way to get that grid energy to the wheel/pavement transition of your electric car.

I do not know the numbers, but want to find out the losses in each step below.

1. Grid generated power 500 miles away. - transmission losses

2. battery charge/store/discharge cycle - loses - I have heard as much as 50% right here.

3. Motor controller to motor to wheel - loses

So for a minute just think of the equalivant energy in whatever grid power fuel you want to use for 1 gallon of gas. That amount of energy generated with all the above losses may only get you 5 miles while if you used the 1 gallon of gas in you car you would get 20-40 miles. If we stripped down todays 30 mpg car to be near the weight/size/eff of your typical electric car it just might get 40-60 mpg.

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I agree, but there are some serious hurdles ahead of us. At work we build lightweight high end yachts and sailboats and many of the hulls and parts are made of carbon fiber. Its very lightweight material, as are some of the metals, plywood cores and stuff, but Carbon Fiber Sailboats don't have to endure numerous crash tests either.

Myself I think we are part of the problem. I recently bit the bullet and got rid of my pickup. I miss it quite a bit, but that pickup drove 80 miles a day to my job, 4 days a week and yet I really did not need a truck to do that. I now drive a Ford Focus (please don't laugh) but the thing gets 37 mpg. Still my wife hates the car because "there is not enough room in there for the baby." Well how much room does a baby really need. Not much. So my wife drives a 20 mpg SUV (highlander) merely because its convenient. I am not saying you and others on here don't want to get by with less, but I think my wife is not alone in this great country.

As for grid losses, I know the answer to that. Its about 50% from power plant to the end user in most towns here in Maine. That is a lot and super conductors don't seem to be working their way into high tension line insulators anytime soon unfortunately.

As for electric vehicles,I kind of get a laugh out of them. They are being billed as the latest and greatest, but they have been around since the 1940's. They are called diesel locomotives and I have worked on my fair share of them. They are also underused in this country...especially Maine...in my opinion.

By the way Pete, on that last post I was not arguing, nor championing your statements, I was just making a few pointers and thoughts. Throwing them out there for thought and discussion.

Its an interesting discussion after all.

And that Northfield Power Complex,I had never heard of it, despite being so close to it, but that was a VERY interesting read. Now all I need is a nuclear power plant,some pumps,a set or turbines and I can make some power on the few acres I got upon this hill.

Travis, your mention of biodiesel reminded me of a program I recently watched. It was a small firm, but they are "engineering" microbes (e. coli) to produce biodiesel. The preliminary results have been quite promising, and their estimates for production (while I believe are inflated) look achievable. And nothing in the process relies on crop production, which is one of the largest problems w/biodiesel.

On another note, Pete mentioned the "storage" issue re: nuclear power plants. I just had a thought. Yeah, dangerous, I know, but... We could simply place the nuclear waste at the seam of one of the more rapidly moving plate subduction zones and let geology "recycle" the material. It should only take a few years to move the material safely out of the environment.

Of course, we'd run the risk of creating mutant sea creatures, but...

The Austin Texas Energy Company ("company" being something of a misused term since it is really a tax subsidized government entity) offers folks the option of getting their electricity from a windmill farm a couple hundred miles away. By agreeing to that option, customers agree to pay a higher rate per KWH for their electricity than other customers. So, this electricity is wind generated but costs more than the several other generator power alternatives?

And how do they know which little electrons running through the grid came from the windmills and which came from the hydroelectric and coal powered and . . . Wouldn't want them folks to get electrons sent packing from that nasty coal fired plant when they paid extra for them cleaner wind motivated electrons.

I understand that the electric company simply buys an equivalent amount of power into their grid from the windmill farm based on the wind generated customers usage (maybe), but it seems to me to be nothing more than a feel good way to pay more for something and really changes nothing.

Someone mentioned an issue of water concerning geothermal and I'm a little confused by that. My assumption on geothermal is that it is used to heat and cool buildings. Those generally use a closed system where the water (or other transfer medium) is pumped down into the grids or other collection system either under ground or in nearby deep water bodies, where it is either heated or cooled depending on the season and then up into the building where the it either carries away heat energy or dispenses it via heat exchange units. There shouldn't be a need for additional vast quantities of water with a closed loop.

Jerry, in Norway and Iceland they are using the steam created from geothermal sources to "drive" generators. Very efficient if you are to believe the sources.

And FWIW, that Texas wind farm may be the one just outside of Sweetwater toward Abilene. I watched them put it in from my dad's place a few years back. They put up 85 IIRC and those things are HUGE!

Likely have to sink your pipes pretty deep to get stuff that hot. Gotta wonder though how long it will be before someone decides that robbing all that heat from the subsurface of the earth will cause some other catastrophic environmental issues. There's already those who claim global warming is really because the liquid dinasaur juice being sucked out of the earth is causing excess friction from the lack of its lubricating powers.

Could be the windmill farm up there or another good sized one along I-10 between Ozona and Ft Stockton.

Jerry Palmer said:

There's already those who claim global warming is really because the liquid dinasaur juice being sucked out of the earth is causing excess friction from the lack of its lubricating powers.

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I don't care who you are, that right there is funny!

Concerning the geothermal technology, you are correct on the point of maybe having to drill deep to get to it. What makes this technology work so well for Iceland and Norway is that the geothermal source is already at the surface. Much like we have in Yellowstone, but theirs is a bit more abundant.

Billy Burt said:

Of course, we'd run the risk of creating mutant sea creatures, but...

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You have never seen a picture of my ex-wife have you

(She was a lobster woman to boot)

Geo-thermal is kind of confusing because there is different types of systems. Geo-thermal is defined as generating heat from the earth, so there can be several variations.

For the average homeowner, geo-thermal just means using the earth to either gather heat for heating a house in winter,or cooling a house in summer. This is the more common usage now.

Geo-thermal in Iceland is a bit different. They are not using the earth as a heat sink, the earth is literally molten lava only a few meters under ground. Instead of burning coal, gas or nuclear fuel to heat water to make steam to drive turbines, they use the super heated water to drive turbines. They also use the hot water to heat their homes. Any of us could do the same thing if we lived near hot springs or an active volcano.

Billy Burt said:

Jerry, in Norway and Iceland they are using the steam created from geothermal sources to "drive" generators. Very efficient if you are to believe the sources.

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Here in California, we have a couple of relatively small geothermal power stations. There's a hot spot under the station and they've drilled down to the hot spot. They inject water down one pipe and take steam back up a different pipe. That steam is used to drive turbines just as if coal or oil was used to heat a boiler.

Very low cost, very reliable power source, but you need a reliable source of water to drive the system. Here in CA, at least a couple of those geothermal stations are in locations where there's not much water (in the desert).

Mike

Billy Burt said:

And FWIW, that Texas wind farm may be the one just outside of Sweetwater toward Abilene. I watched them put it in from my dad's place a few years back. They put up 85 IIRC and those things are HUGE!

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.......and just FYI, Texas is now the Largest Wind Generating State in the Union. There are literally Hundreds and Hundreds of those "UGLY" things in large farms almost solidly stretched from Mc Camey to Ft. Stockton, Tx, and Starting around Big Spring, Tx, they pretty well cover every hilly plateau on the south side of I-20 going east toward Sweetwater, and there are Hundreds of them around Sweetwater. Then, going east out of Abilene along Hwy 180 towards Albany they have, and are continuing to install hundreds more of them.
I know we need the diversity of wind power, and one or two scattered around here and there wouldn't be so bad, but when you have hundreds and hundreds of them everywhere you look, they have absolutely RUINED the "Old West" scenery of West Texas, and I absolutely hate to look at the Ugly things. I also know that their energy is not exactly cheap either, because the cost of maintenance on that type of system as a whole, (incl. the generators themselves, and support electronics and equipment) which is, (or has been in the past), much higher than the other types of generation machinery.

(Of course, the Farmers love them), as the latest figures I heard where that they are getting $40,000/year lease money from the power companies for EACH Windmill location, (and they can cram quite a lot of them on even a small farm), and the cotton farmers can still farm most of the land around the windmills. They are now going through the paperwork process to approve areas to install the "UGLY" things here around Odessa.

Another interesting fact is that unless there has been some more recent changes that I have not heard about, MOST of the "Ugly" things are owned by power companies outside of Texas, (like Florida Pwr & Light, etc.).

And with all this, "WE" still don't have cheap electricity.

Ok, Rant Over. (Sometimes it's just good to get things off your chest though)