Sharp Knives

[Ryan Mooney]

Any suggestions as to what and where to get these stones as well as a good guide?

This is all for hand stones, for guided sharpening I think either the Lansky or the Wicked Edge, or Edge Pro type system with a full holder. I haven't really seen a system that I think I'd trust to hold a reliable angle that works with knives on a flat stone (it might exist, not sure - note the DMT guide below.. seems about as close as such things). I personally quite dislike the V style sharpeners, they seem like the worst of both worlds where it's difficult to get a consistent angle AND they're slow PLUS you have a narrow wear point that will dish over time increasing the variance.

At least the https://www.edgeproinc.com/ system has a lot of third party offerings (i.e you can get Chosera stone set for it https://www.amazon.com/Chosera-Full-Stone-Set-Aluminum/dp/B00IBXOJZA or various diamond stones https://www.amazon.com/Advanced-technology-aluminum-compatible-Sharpener/dp/B083B6DQN6/ - some of these likely work with the Wicked Edge or others). That may or may not be an advantage depending on your knife selection (it's probably not for most "normal" knives).

Using a full sized stone free hand takes more practice and you can mess things up faster than you can fix them for sure. The trade off is that you have more flexibility (plus and minus there) and it's generally faster as you can use larger stones and more of the stone plus there's less setup/tear down.

Once you get very high in vanadium you probably need to look at diamond (or cbn) - VG10 is NOT anywhere near a problem here IMHO. DMT makes good diamond plates and the Atoma are decent (I've had .. mixed.. luck with Trend). The finer grits you can get diamond lapping paste pretty cheaply and it can be a decent choice as well. The spyderco fine also works here, it's a saphire in ceramic stone.

There are basically 2 kinds of water stones, splash & go (or low soak) like the Shapton glass, or sit and soak. There are tradeoffs, but for a kitchen tool the splash and go has a lot of advantages imho, but it does depend on your setup some.

A while back woodcraft had a set of shapton glass on sale for 40% off (the current price is about the same as AMZ minus the free shipping)

Shapton - Glass Stone Set w/ Field Holder - 500, 2000, 16000 Grit

Shapton® Glass Stones are harder, faster cutting, and denser than any other ceramic waterstone on the market. The density and high degree of uniformity in the distribution of the ceramic particles results in fast honing at every grit level. This set is a great value for those who want a complete...

www.woodcraft.com

and apparently a 10% coupon..

https://www.amazon.com/Shapton-Glass-Stone-Field-Holder/dp/B005NXXO4S/ref=sr_1_1_sspa

I sprang for them at $175 and they are very nice stones. At full price it would be a harder sell but they are still very very nice stones.
They aren't quite as fast as the Sigma II's but also don't require the whole soak and drain dance which is nice. You can basically spritz them and they're good to go. The package with the holder is also very convenient. Their Ceramics are also supposed to be quite nice as well although perhaps a smidge softer (I've heard them described as between the glass and the chosera or sigma's).

I also have a set of the Sigma's from some years back: https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...r-select-ii-ceramic-water-stones?item=60K8213 - I have the 1k, 3k, and 13k. The 13k is really amazing but requires a bit of practice to get the "touch", it cuts quite fast with a slurry and then dries down as you hone and works into polishing mode leaving an absolute mirror edge. These have a much looser binder than the shaptons so they bring up a slurry quite fast and cut very quickly. If I'm sharpening a lot of stuff I'll bring these out (i.e. if I'm going over to someones house or down to the brewery to sharpen a whole rack of knives). These MUST be used with a flattening stone to clean them up and reflatten (they're thick enough they won't wear out in my lifetime).

The Chosera are supposed to be on-par with the Sigma's, although some folks like one or the other for various things https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Naniwa-Professional-Stone-New-Chosera-P552.aspx

I have a lot of nice things to say about the spiderco fine, it's super easy to use, doesn't require any lubricant (a splash of water does help remove swarf), and is ridiculously hard so it sharpens every kind of steel. The downsides are that they *all* arrive very much not flat and are ridiculously hard so you *also* need a 250-300 grit - or coarser diamond plate to flatten it (do this under water) as diamond is basically the only thing that will cut the saphire in these stones. The flattening plate will cost more than the stone so that's.. kind of a trade off unless you also want the flattening plate for something else (suggest DMT or https://www.amazon.com/Atoma-Diamond-Sharpening-Flattening-Whetstone/dp/B00BN32J84/). Also because it doesn't release slurry it's slow, very slow compared to a good waterstone and moderately slow compared to a good arkansas. Their superfine is just the fine with more polish, waste of $ imho. I haven't tried their medium as I have a lot of other options in that range.

On the arkansas side I have this translucent https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-TAST100 and it's a fantastic stone (their set of carving slips are also amazing https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-CTS.XX). I have a full set of soft, hard, and black bench stones from .. (which I think are Halls although I bought it through a reseller, Halls appears to be basically out of business) and frankly this cuts as fast as the soft and finishes as really close to fine as the black (the black will produce surgical grade edges with care).. it's really magical (when I bought it it was also about half the price). I suspect this might be from Dan's https://danswhetstone.com/product/bench-stones/ as TFWW is out of stock but I not 100% sure.

For 95% of my kitchen sharpening (not honing) I use either the spyderco or the arkansas. The Arky is a bit faster, the spyderco leaves perhaps a slightly finer edge and cuts better on the couple of really hard knives. Both are fantastic single stones. I could very much see pairing them with a DMT or Trend 180-200 or 320 and 600 and being plumb happy (i.e. https://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/DMT-8-Dia-Sharp-Diamond-Kit-P405C3.aspx or )

For cross checking angles by hand I do sometimes use reference tools like the below to cross check. I've also cut the angle on a reference piece of plywood and set that beside the work as a learning aid.

https://www.amazon.com/General-Tools-Square-Metal-Protractor/dp/B00004T7TB/ref=asc_df_B00004T7TB/

and something very like this rig (not this rig, but this is the closest I can find now)

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/protractors/76526-workshop-protractor?item=99N0423

You could also make something like the DMT guide pretty easily

Using the DMT Knife Guide

Using the DMT Knife Guide A Step-by-Step Guide for Sharpening Knives Using Bench Stones and the DMT Knife Sharpening Guide This step-by-step guide will walk you through how to sharpen your knives using bench stones and the DMT Knife Sharpening Guide. We recommend you read our article Selecting...

www.sharpeningsupplies.com

I'm unconvinced of it's utility in practice but as a "set a reference edge" learning guide it may well have some value.

There are of course a lot of cheaper stones and options that can also work well, it's a bit of a hit and miss depending on what you get though.

 

[Leo Voisine]

Thank you for that very good information.

 

[Brent Dowell]

Well, It sure is the prettiest chefs knife I have now. Holy cow.

The Victorinox was my workhorse for years. I had owned the wustof for a while, but just last year switched to using it more and practicing freehand sharpening with it.

The instructions that came with the brodark suggest using a 20-30 degree angle, look like a typical western edge, not the japanese one sided sharpening to me.

Sharp as all get out right out of the box. Can wait to give it a run through at some point. Probably this weekend when I do Christmas dinner.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

One other thing I might suggest for folks starting out on sharpening is a loupe or other decent small magnifying glass. It's super handy to be able to see what the edge is actually doing while sharpening.

 

[Leo Voisine]

I hate loops.

At work we had some awesome digital magnifyers similar to microscopes but with an extremely clear view on a computer screen. I cannot afford stuff like that, but I sure do miss that stuff.

I have a somewhat decent magnifyer light.
I forgot the magnifcation NOT 50X or anything like that.
I do have a small Mitutoyo 15X eye loop.

 

[Mike Stafford]

I guess I am the only one that uses a steel. There are two kinds of steels; a honing steel and a sharpening steel. A honing steel is used to align the teeth created on a stone along a freshly sharpened edge. I was taught that you should use a honing steel on the knife in between sharpenings to extend the life of the edge. I bought a good steel many years ago and it hasn't worn out....yet. Back in the olden days, you know, the late 60's and 70's butchers used steels while they were cutting meat. All a steel does is aligns the "teeth" created during. You can feel the bent teeth along the edge with a nail. After steeling you should feel less.

There is also a sharpening steel which is essentially a round tapered file with the teeth running along the steel from handle to tip. This steel is used with the tip on the work surface while holding the handle vertical and the knife is drawn/pulled back toward the user to refresh the edge. It is a quick and dirty way to sharpen but not for a really dull knife that needs regrinding on a stone or belt. I have a sharpening steel but it stays in the knife block most of the time. I don't think I have used it more than 20 or 30 times in 40 years and that was because I hit a bone and dulled the knife.

I have a ceramic "steel" which I use occasionally to freshen up an edge. Of course now you can buy preset sharpeners with two ceramic rods that hit both sides of the edge at the same time. Most of these devices have the bevels set at 15 degrees or thereabouts.

Sharpening is an interesting science and there is much that can be learned about it from the methods used by other people.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

I do have a small Mitutoyo 15X eye loop.

Yeah that would imho be more than plenty. It's mostly so you can see what the edge really looks like and whether there's a burr I didn't use to find them nearly as valuable either, but here we are I found the 2.5x magnifier light to be a bit under magnified for really identifying problem areas.

A dull edge looked at straight on will have a bit of a "white line" and you can see where you're missing grits along the edge somewhat. There's lots of good videos out there on it, but imho the best way is to take some cheap knives and ruin them a few times

You can also sharpie the edge to check how well you're hitting the whole thing.,

I guess I am the only one that uses a steel

Nope you're not alone, i use one everytime I cook pretty much, but I still like to go back to stones between honing maybe once or twice a month or so. I'm not as big of a fan of sharpening steels because they miss the tip unless you're really good (I ain't, most aren't) and they'll cause the center of the blade to end up dished out (we've all seen that knife all tip and heal no center). For some intermediate use between actual sharpening they're fine if you're in a hurry like a commercial butcher, I'm not either of those.

Of course now you can buy preset sharpeners with two ceramic rods that hit both sides of the edge at the same time.

Those have similar issues to sharpening steels imho and most folks I've seen try to use them end up with an inconsistent edge angle because they can't hold the blade reliably straight up and the center of the blade over ground.

 

[Brent Dowell]

Not sure what this proves, but this is right out of the box, no additional sharpening, stropping, or steeling.

 

[Brent Dowell]

Kind of makes me want to go put it on the wicked edge now that I've got the wicked edge pulled out, and the knife is ready for a little sumthin sumthin.

Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Mike Stafford]

Yeah that would imho be more than plenty. It's mostly so you can see what the edge really looks like and whether there's a burr I didn't use to find them nearly as valuable either, but here we are I found the 2.5x magnifier light to be a bit under magnified for really identifying problem areas.

A dull edge looked at straight on will have a bit of a "white line" and you can see where you're missing grits along the edge somewhat. There's lots of good videos out there on it, but imho the best way is to take some cheap knives and ruin them a few times

You can also sharpie the edge to check how well you're hitting the whole thing.,


Nope you're not alone, i use one everytime I cook pretty much, but I still like to go back to stones between honing maybe once or twice a month or so. I'm not as big of a fan of sharpening steels because they miss the tip unless you're really good (I ain't, most aren't) and they'll cause the center of the blade to end up dished out (we've all seen that knife all tip and heal no center). For some intermediate use between actual sharpening they're fine if you're in a hurry like a commercial butcher, I'm not either of those.


Those have similar issues to sharpening steels imho and most folks I've seen try to use them end up with an inconsistent edge angle because they can't hold the blade reliably straight up and the center of the blade over ground.

Your comment about the sharpening steel is spot on. I was taught to hold the sharpening steel by the handle with the steel pointed downward with the end pressed against a work surface. The knife was supposed to be drawn from heel to toe towards your body. Sounds easy enough to do but I find it quite difficult to do in practice as it becomes difficult to exert enough pressure against the tip/toe and you end up with either little or no sharpening in that area.

For quick and dirty touch ups while I am carving the turkey, chicken, ham, etc. I do like the little sharpeners with two ceramic rods.. They act much like honing steels and give a little touch up to the edge.

People find it hard to accept how much good the use of a honing steel does for the edge. Aligning the teeth makes a knife much sharper....for a while.

 

[Leo Voisine]

Not sure what this proves, but this is right out of the box, no additional sharpening, stropping, or steeling.

SWEET

 

[Ryan Mooney]

Aligning the teeth makes a knife much sharper....for a while.

Yeah there are basically three ways a knife gets dull. Honing helps two of them to some degree.

First is edge alignment where the edge folds over a little. This can cause further failure but is mostly fixed with a hone, which can help draw the folded edge back into shape. The hone will also work harden the edge a bit which can prolong the edge on some softer knives. The folded edge is also more likely to fail entirely so a quick hone can sometimes prevent that.

Second is chipping, mostly happens if the edge is hardened past the toughness threshold for the type of steel. But can happen if the edge is abused. Honing is unlikely to help this a lot, be more gentle with the knife in this case.

Finally, and most common, is corrosion. All steels corrode they just do it differently. But basically moisture and chlorine and salts and sulfur are the enemy. Corrosion is accelerated in pits, especially in stainless (which can actually suffer galvanic pitting with astounding speed, don’t leave chlorine mixes in stainless pots), but pits are bad in all steels. Part of why I think stropped edges last longer is because it smooths out some of the little pits edges slowing corrosion, honing probably has a similar effect. This is also a good reason to dry off even stainless knives and rinse them after cutting high salt or sulfur foods (garlic, onions especially). Honing will also draw the edge a little and help some here but it has its limits.

Edit: and of course abrasion, which was perhaps to obvious for me pre-coffee brain to include.

This is another case where magnification can be really interesting to figure out how the edge is failing (or you can just work the grits and sharpen it hah)

 

[Don Baer]

well I didn't spend a lot of time but these stone will definitely get the job done, I too the Old timer and 2 Henkels and spent about 10 minutes all told running them through the 3000 and 8000 grit and they will cut. I'll take some more time this week end and give em a really good sharpening them I should be goo to go. Just a note it came with a guide that you attach to the back of the blade to help you set the angle, I tried it and promptly set it aside. I have enough muscle memory from over 60 years of sharpening that I don't need it to set the angle I want. My Dad taught me how to properly hold the knife to sharpen it when I was about 10 years old. Oh yea here are a few pictures of some tomato slices.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

these stone will definitely get the job done,

Good to hear and nice to have some moderately priced options!

I think the main thing starting out with sharpening is to pick a method and stick with it until you're good at it and not phaff around to much trying everything. I have a selection of things more for playing with, but when I actually want to sharpen something.. there's a process I do that works for me and most of the rest of it kind of drops by the wayside

This is sort of an interesting shot, I was fixing up a hewing axe today. When I got it the profile was.. not great.. so I've spent a fair bit of time messing around to get it where I want it (hewing axes should pretty much work like large heavy razor blades with one flat side, this one had no flat side and most of my garden tools have a sharper edge..). Anyway part way through establishing the bevel side with a good raking light it was really clear where I had worked all the way to the edge.. and where I had not.



A couple minutes later and you can see how the line has gotten narrower...



Also sharpened up these two, the one on the right goes back to my buddy who gave it to me for de-rusting and tune up a couple.. umm..years.. ago (cough), the one on the left also got a new handle. This is before sharpening.. I didn't grab a pic after.

 

[Brent Dowell]

I think the main thing starting out with sharpening is to pick a method and stick with it until you're good at it and not phaff around to much trying everything.

Yeah, That's part of my problem. i've got a little bridge setup to go in my slop sink and hold my stone now. Every now and then I take that wustoff of my to the sink and work on it. Someday I'll get the hang of it, lol.

 

[Leo Voisine]

I agree with the one method ans stick to it approach. I also like the KISS method.
I have used scary sharp in my shop for years using a Veritas guide.
Razor sharp.
I may switch over to wetstones - Maybe.
I don't need to have more than one sharpening system.
My friend that gave me the KING stone said I should - but that was around 20 years ago.

I have some good stones and a few accessories coming in. and this is going to be it.
This will set up my kitchen nife sharpening process.

I think the cheap stone I have is just too far down on the cheap side.
It did get the knife very sharp, but not to where I wanted it.
It came out better than my hand sharpening.

My guess is that the Amazon kit is far superior to my cheap stone.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

For completeness here's the axe I rehung on a new handle. It was technically a pick handle, but with minimal reshaping it worked for the axe.. Freshly scraped (the film finish they come with is imho only good for storage in the store) and wiped down with a good coat of BLO.

 

[Leo Voisine]

Ryan, I was watching a sharpening video this morning and the guy was talking about the burr on the edge. That gave me a whole new understanding of sharpening. I was looking for a visual "shiny" on top of the "V" to see if there was a shiny rounded edge.

I think I will adopt the 15x loop, if I can find it, I think I know where it is, plus the burr technique. That all makes sense to me now.

Whew, I can see a LOT of sharpening do be done going forward.

 

[Mike Stafford]

For completeness here's the axe I rehung on a new handle. It was technically a pick handle, but with minimal reshaping it worked for the axe.. Freshly scraped (the film finish they come with is imho only good for storage in the store) and wiped down with a good coat of BLO.

View attachment 123216


View attachment 123217

This picture brings back memories of which I have mixed emotions.

Back in the day when I used to cut, haul and split a lot of wood I had a double bit axe and a normal axe. I sharpened them with my 4 1/2" grinder and sandpaper backed up by a rubber pad.

It worked great and was far sharper than when I used a file and an axe stone. It was also a fast way to get a sharp edge.

I am glad that I don't have to swing an axe these days.

 

[Ted Calver]

Back in my forestry college days (stone age) I spent a lot of time in the woods and carried a really nice little double bit cruisers axe with a 2lb head that was a joy to use. Wish I still had it. Regrettably, it was in a box of sporting goods with some nice Mitchel spinning reels and a complete set of then really nice Buck hunting/fishing knives that was "lost" in shipment when we moved out of Alaska.

The other thing I wish I still had from my woods roaming days was a beautiful old black ash pack basket from the St Regis Mohawk reservation in Akwesasne, NY that had been passed down from my grandfather. Looked just like this one, but with leather straps. Left at my folks house when I moved out and never saw it again.

Good times.

As an aside, double bit axes can be more dangerous than regular axes. During a timbersports competition between my school and the Penn State College of Forestry one of the guys was doing the standing block chop (no protective equipment back in those days) using a pimped out short handled, heavy headed double bit axe. When he rotated the axe back behind his head to begin the power stroke, he split his scalp straight down the middle from front to back. That's when I learned how much scalp wounds can bleed. Lots and lots of stitches.