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SOMETHING FOR ALL MEMBERS and GUESTS

Stuart Ablett said:
Comes down to what the definition of "Religious" is don't it?
Mike, I no longer read every post here, I'm not on staff, so that is not something I have to do. Like you, I'm very busy, I read what interests me, sorry if I miss out some good posts, but time is limited. I must have missed the posts where someone is breaking the CoC when it comes to religion, could you, or anyone else, please point me to these posts so I can take a look? I'm not saying they do not exist, they may very well, but I've not seen them. :dunno: If the problem is as widespread as the response here is generating, I suspect that this should be a fairly easy thing to do.

Now to get some things straight(ish);

Saying Christmas is OK..?
How about wishing the members here a Merry Christmas, is that copacetic?

Do I bring up Easter?

I agree with those who said that talking about the woodworking you did for the local church is just fine, proselytizing about it is not, can we agree on that?

Showing a picture of a cross you made for your local church, or to sell for a local church fund raiser, is that OK?

Asking for thoughts and prayers, now this one has to be fine, come on, it is not asking just for prayers, but for both thoughts and prayers, so if one wishes to send kind thought waves across the fruited plain, or send prayers to the deity of your choice, how can that be offensive?

When I was a mod and we were setting up this place as I recall, we came up with the interpretation that "No Religion" in the CoC meant no "Proselytizing Religion" is the working definition.

Right now as I see it, the hard knot we are working on here is defining "Religion", what constitutes breaking the no "Religion" clause of the CoC. If we were to add the word "Proselytizing" to the CoC as in "No Proselytizing Religion" would that help?

I fear it would just shift the discussion to the definition of "Proselytizing" :doh:

I've yet to see a "Zero Tolerance" rule that worked in the real world, I think we have to let the mods guided by their good judgment choose the fine line on some of these issues, and yes, it can be hard, I know I was in the hot seat myself for some time.

I'll wait for the examples of people breaking the CoC, like I said, I do not read every thread, so because of the fervor of the arguments here I simply must believe the examples must be widespread.

Cheers!
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Here's my position:

1. Prayer is a religious function. Certainly when someone asks for prayers, they are asking for a religious response. And not everyone prays for a variety of reasons.

2. The CoC specifically says (I'm not quoting exactly): "No religion - if you even think it's religious don't post it". I'd like to see the plain text followed because if we carve out an exception here, other people will ask for exceptions and say "Well, you gave an exception for prayer. Why can't I have my exception?" It'll be hard to refuse without appearing to be biased.

If we want to allow an exception, we should change the CoCs to allow the exception. That way, we can tell someone else asking for an exception to go get support for a change to the CoCs.

Our problem, here, is that some of the religious people feel the rules shouldn't apply to them.

3. There's a very simple alternate, which is to ask for support.

4. Finally, I find that religious people want to push their religiosity on other people, even if you don't consider that proselytizing. Religion and prayer are something that should be done by consenting adults (and their children) in the privacy of their home or in their church, temple, mosque or other place of worship.

Mike
 
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Mike Henderson said:
Here's my position:

1. Prayer is a religious function. Certainly when someone asks for prayers, they are asking for a religious response. And not everyone prays for a variety of reasons.

2. The CoC specifically says (I'm not quoting exactly): "No religion - if you even think it's religious don't post it". I'd like to see the plain text followed because if we carve out an exception here, other people will ask for exceptions and say "Well, you gave an exception for prayer. Why can't I have my exception?" It'll be hard to refuse without appearing to be biased.

If we want to allow an exception, we should change the CoCs to allow the exception. That way, we can tell someone else asking for an exception to go get support for a change to the CoCs.

Our problem, here, is that some of the religious people feel the rules shouldn't apply to them.

3. There's a very simple alternate, which is to ask for support.

4. Finally, I find that religious people want to push their religiosity on other people, even if you don't consider that proselytizing. Religion and prayer are something that should be done by consenting adults (and their children) in the privacy of their home or in their church, temple, mosque or other place of worship.

Mike
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ok mike, here we go....

1. yes, prayer is a religious function, asking for them is not. i have yet to see someone actually post a prayer for someone, which would be a religious function, and a violation of the coc.

2. once again, if there is no actual prayer posted, there's no religion, just a request for someone to do something in the privacy of thier home. again, no violation of the coc.

3. asking for prayer (once again, to be done in private, not posted on the site) is a form of asking for support, and not a violation of the coc.

4. the latter part of this one makes my point for me. i have yet to see any member posting calls to prayer (muslim) 5 times a day, or posting the sabbath (jewish) prayer, or posting a mass (catholic), or services (other assorted christian denominations), here on the site, which would be a violation of the coc. so i do not see the pushing of religiosity here on the site.

so, asking for prayers (which are done in the privacy ultimately, of our own thoughts), which are a form of kind thoughts, is not a violation of the coc. now, if i were to post a prayer for someone, that would be a violation of the coc.
 
Dan Noren said:
ok mike, here we go....

1. yes, prayer is a religious function, asking for them is not. i have yet to see someone actually post a prayer for someone, which would be a religious function, and a violation of the coc.

2. once again, if there is no actual prayer posted, there's no religion, just a request for someone to do something in the privacy of thier home. again, no violation of the coc.

3. asking for prayer (once again, to be done in private, not posted on the site) is a form of asking for support, and not a violation of the coc.

4. the latter part of this one makes my point for me. i have yet to see any member posting calls to prayer (muslim) 5 times a day, or posting the sabbath (jewish) prayer, or posting a mass (catholic), or services (other assorted christian denominations), here on the site, which would be a violation of the coc. so i do not see the pushing of religiosity here on the site.

so, asking for prayers (which are done in the privacy ultimately, of our own thoughts), which are a form of kind thoughts, is not a violation of the coc. now, if i were to post a prayer for someone, that would be a violation of the coc.
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In my opinion, asking for prayers falls under the prohibition on religion in the CoC, and I think it's pretty clear. Advocating that it does not is just a way of attempting to carve out an exception without changing the CoC.

Mike
 
Dan, just for the point of clarity, in the time that I have been a moderator here, now 2.5 years, there have been 2 times when a member posted an actual prayer. Both times, after discussion, the mods asked the individual to change the post, and both times the posts were changed, because the mods felt that a prayer was not allowed. One of the two members left the forum seemingly because of this. The other remains an active participant.

For the record, I have no problem with a member asking for prayers, thoughts, good wishes, or support. And I have no problem with members saying "I will pray for you" or "you are in my thoughts."
 
Ken If that were left to be as it were I see no problem in it at all. But then the Humanist came in and decided to push there agenda on everyone. There agenda or humanism approach to life is just as much as a religion and my faith is. I have never pushed my faith on anyone.
 
Dave Hawksford said:
Ken If that were left to be as it were I see no problem in it at all. But then the Humanist came in and decided to push their agenda on everyone. Their agenda or humanism approach to life is just as much as a religion as my faith is. I have never pushed my faith on anyone.
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Humanism or secularism is not a religion. People have tried to bring that case in court and it has failed repeatedly.

There is no Church of the Holy Secular, or any of the other trappings of a religion associated with the concepts of humanism or secularism.

Mike

[I will point out the there is a long history of keeping the religious out of the secular. If I am allowed to quote a religious book, "Therefore render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".]
 
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It's time to shut this thread down. It's obvious to me that one person, no matter what he says, keeps stirring the waters to keep his picture in front of everyone.

Close this thread now! :thumb:
 
Bill Arnold said:
It's time to shut this thread down. It's obvious to me that one person, no matter what he says, keeps stirring the waters to keep his picture in front of everyone.

Close this thread now! :thumb:
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Maybe we should ask that person to remove his/her picture. Then we could focus on the logic of the various positions without the visual distraction.

Mike

[Perhaps this is not as good of a solution, but as Ken has suggested, you can simply not read the postings if you are offended by them.]
 
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I like this place, though I am not in here all that often. I have another "home" base, but this would be my home is I were not there. Gee, I hope that makes sense.

I am a born again christian, but strongy prefer that these forums remain absolutely free from religeous or political discussions.

These are topics that CANNOT be moderated, therefore, should not be allowed at all.

If that means, do not even ask for prayer - then so be it - don't ask and don't offer. Just don't do it.

Here is a thread that proves that it is of such an issue that it needs the strictest attention.

NO - do not allow religeous or political discussion.

As soon as the moderators allow it, the clock WILL tick, and the bomb WILL - absolutely EXPLODE. That is a fact of life.

The question is REALLY simple to answer. NO do not allow it, at all.

-- FAR more members will leave a forum over religeous debate, that those that will leave because they cannot debate.

The question is REALLY simple to answer. NO do not allow it, at all.
 
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