Welding

Carol Reed

In Memoriam
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Coolidge, AZ
Reading the tractor forums is leading me to believe I need to learn how to weld or I risk flunking Bubba101 as a tractor owner.

In the past, I tried a ROP class and managed a animal gate with gas welding. Sticks always managed to get stuck. Later on I bought a wire welder but it went to my brother (the metal worker) for helping me move. He is willing to weld for me but he is 10 hours away.

The forums say wire welding is sufficient and easy to learn. Some of you weld. What do you think of this? http://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/power-i-mig-140e

I can get it for $379 as a member of that forum. Paid lots more for the Miller back in the day. Any other machines you'd care to recommend? Seems I remember a MIG vs. TIG conversation a while ago. Stu?

Also, any tutorials so I can get an idea of the fine mess I am about to get myself into.

And thoughts on safety items? What other accessories? Knowing the tool itself is only the tip of the iceberg.
 
Stu's the man on the welding front, but what I'll say is that using the appropriate wire/gas combo made a heck of a difference.

I picked up a lincoln 180 wire feed welder, and for my hobbiest needs, it does great but it requires 220 volts.

I'll step back and let the experts take over now.
 
Outsource it.

1 welder will not do everything, Mig Tig Gas, Arc...

Look in the Yellow pages vs online for a metal shop near you.

There should be one within 1 hours drive.

The quality of the weld has to do with a lot of things.

Avoid places that have illegal alians doing the welding if you care about quality.

Look for places that sell sheet steel, and plate steel.

With a good Mechanical drawing type pencil drawing many will fabricate for you at very reasonable prices--CASH accross the palm vs charge or invoice.

That way you know the welds will be solid and hopefully they are using GOOD wire.

Ever use an Angle Grinder? Know how to use it properly to smooth out a wled bead? Do you know a good bead from a bad bead? etc...

Experiance is very low cost to buy from these guys, and their stuff is more likley to not rust out, crack apart, or just plain fail.

You could learn it, but why??????? Its pretty cheap to have it done.

I could post the How to use an angle grinder correctly video, but the man swears like a sailor on shore leave and this is a family forum so I wont.


just my 2 cents....
 
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Sort of leaning towards being with Scott.

I have a little MIG and while its a great little machine I'm not sure it really would do a lot of good on most tractor repair because it doesn't really have the penetration needed for anything of size and doesn't lay down enough (or the right type of) material for say - surfacing a bucket edge or similar. Haven't really done much TIG, but it seemed harder than stick when I tried it once (although I wasn't no great shakes at stick even when it hadn't been 20 years). If you're bent on it personally I'd shoot for a decent stick welder for most tractor work, excepting maybe sheet metal work on the body (a mig would definitely be easier there). If you do get a welder the auto darkening helmets are the great gift to amateur welders, I might even have stuck with stick welding if we'd had one of those back when (instead of just the rod being stuck all the time :D). If you're doing your own fixes you'll likely soon end up also wanting a torch.. and a cutoff saw and .. well the list gets longish :D

You might see if the local college has a welding course and see if you can get into that. Having some more hands on with gas and stick would likely be pretty useful.

I've also said before that while I don't have a problem doing small projects with my (lack of) welding skill, I'd be awfully hesitant to do anything where life and limb mattered without more practice and instruction.
 
I bought the Everlast 160 tig. All I needed was a helmet, Argon gas + tank ($$) . Arc has no problem heating even 1" thick rod that I welded. Tig to me is like the acetylene welding from high school days, but with an electric arc to melt the metal.
 
Still, I'd pay the 90 and sit inthe shade sipping a nice cool Iced tea.

You will have more than that wrapped up in a welder, protective eqpt, clamps, (Special Boots) special Elecrical outlet.

You can get cheap rigs at Harbor frieght, but the innards are not going to give a long serivce life.

Look at it this way, Brain surgeon, $20 for the cut with an Exacto Kniife, $20,000 for knowing where to cut.

Look around, take the part to a weld shop, ask for a price on the repair vs time.

Or maybe trade soemthing for the repair, such as using the tractor to redo the guys front lawn????

A pair of welding boots (to keep the molten hot metal from burning a hole through your foot) will run about $200.

Still its easier and cheaper to pay the $90 an hour<--(I'd get a solid dollar bid for the job though)

http://workingperson.com/carolina-b...1&cadevice=c&gclid=CKyN48aWir4CFWNo7Aod1x4A1w

Cash is king and should get you a better deal. Maybe ask your husband to go down and ask the price, they might be giving the ladies night special (higher priced).
 
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I'm going to disagree with Scott on some things and agree on others.

If you want a welder so you can be a weldor and fix/make things from steel, then go for it, but for somethings that are very mission critical on your tractor, get them fixed by a professional welder.

The first thing you should do is learn something more about welding, look around I'm sure there is a night course that you can take that will give you the basics, and then you will be able to understand the difference between the four main electric methods.

Here are my impressions of the various kinds of welding and what I think are good and bad points about them

SMAW Shielded Metal Arc Welding
Stick welding You can, with the right rods and an AC/DC machine weld a LOT of different metals, but it takes real skill and know how, plus you have to keep those rods in good shape, which usually means a rod oven that is on a certain temp 24/7, not exactly for the home hobbyist. That is why most stick welding done by hobbyists or farmers is on metal, using basic rods like the 6010 or 6011 they work well on most anything, have good penetration and don't mind a dirty surface. The 7018 is good too, and you can make much nicer looking welds, but they need a clean surface and don't penetrate as well as the 6010/6011. Stick welding can weld through paint and rust and deal with wind outside. Really it is not hard to learn stick welding, but to become very good at it takes a steady hand and a lot of practice. Upsides are that you can weld thicker material with a fairly basic unit, 220V for sure but most homeowners have that on hand, even if you have to wire in a new 220V outlet. Also a good basic unit can be had used for very little money, older units might be a bit on the heavy side, but they are usually well made and will run for many more years. Down side, they are messy to run, chipping the slag, and they are not easy to use on thin material. When you finish the weld you have to chip the slag off the weld, this is the stuff on the welding rod that vaporized during the welding creating the gas cover for the welding pool and then protects the hot metal from contamination as it cools, this is messy but for outdoors welding on rusty painted metal it works rather well, and if you are out fixing a tractor in a yard, the mess is not a concern.​


FCAW Flux Core Arc Welding
MIG with flux core wire and no gas bottle, in many ways this is like stick welding with a stick that never gets shorter as you use it. Basically there are the 110V and the 220V units, many are dual voltage, so you can weld 110V at almost any regular outlet, all be it not the thicker materials. The main difference is the thickness of the steel the 220V unit can weld over the 110V units. IMHO don't buy the 110V unit, unless all you wanted to do was restore a car body, even then I'd suggest GMAW unit even if it is 110V, as it is cleaner, no slag to get rid of. As Brent will tell you, the cheap 110V units are expensive, as they just don't work very well and you either give up, which is a waste of your money as you sell the unit for cheap, or it takes up space in your garage, or you still want to weld, so you end up buying a good quality unit that you should have bought to start with. This holds true for almost any tool, as I'm sure most of us are painfully aware of. Good points, machines are usually less expensive, this is fairly easy to learn how to weld and you can weld in almost any place that has a 110V outlet. Bad points are you are limited to steel and fairly thin steel, but they work and fill a need for many hobbyist.​

GMAW Gas Metal Arc Welding
MIG with solid wire and a gas bottle. With a 220V unit and the right wire you can weld from very thin steel 24 gauge to 5/16" on a single pass. Machines like the Hobart Handler 190 are great, they also can weld stainless, with a different gas bottle and wire, and Aluminum, also a different gas bottle, wire and a spool gun, but there many package deals that the spool gun comes with. I think Brent got a Hobart....? By shutting off the gas, and changing the polarity of the welder (5 min job) as well as getting a spool of Flux Core wire you can also FCAW with this welder, which means you can weld outside. Some of them are also dual voltage you you can set it up to run on 110V as well, which means you can still weld even if you don't have access to 220V power, say at a friend's house or something. Really if I had to had to suggest one machine for someone beginning to weld I'd say a 220V GMAW (MIG) welder with the gas bottle, you can do a LOT with one of these welders, and if you want to sell it at some point you will get good money for it, because it is a very capable machine.​

GTAW Gas Tungsten Arc Welding
TIG Welding. Like Bryan said it is very much like gas welding, without the fumes! Dependent on your machine you can weld anything from razor blades to fairly thick steel. The TIG welder does take the most time to learn and it is certainly a learning curve, but with an AC/DC machine you can weld just about any metal that conducts electricity, steel, stainless steel, aluminum, titanium, brass, copper, bronze, cast iron and I'm sure there are some I've not mentioned. The good machines are not cheap, but they are worth it, the arc is very stable and easier to use. Good points, clean, quiet, not such heavy fumes, bad points, steep learning curve, slow, not cheap.

If I could only own one welder it would be a TIG, as most TIG welding machines can also be set up to run SMAW or Stick welding too, that being said, the TIG is slow, if I have a bunch of basic easy welds to do, the MIG, GMAW will be my go too machine.

I hope that gives you some more info, and clears things up.

I'd not buy an offshore machine, lots of guys do, but I've heard some real horror stories about them, I did a LOT of research on the subject and I would not buy one of those machines, I'd look for a good used MIG welder with a gas bottle, or step up and buy a good new machine, Hobart and Miller are the top two IMHO as well as Lincoln.

I really think you should save your money and go take a lesson at a night school tech college of some sort, then make a decision of what works for you.

PS don't skimp on the helmet and gloves when you get around to buying them, good fitting gloves make the whole thing much easier to do and a good helmet is worth the money.

I like Chucke2009's videos, very entertaining and lots of good info.

Cheers!

 
Sound advice so far, I have come to the conclusion I am going with what Stu suggested re Migs and also want a dual voltage unit. Only thing stopping me at present is this house we in. But in the next few weeks if i get the hookup sorted i am planning then that obstacle is off the cards.

However I think Scott has a very good point. I have welding i need done right now for business purposes where its got to be good and consistent and result needs to be accurate frame. I am outsourcing this. Would do the same for something i would be planning to use to hold stuff on the back of a tractor.

But as a hobby i want to be able to weld to make things i want to make when i want. Period. I have two and soon to be more disc brake rotors in my garage that have been waiting wont say who for to get welded to some pipe i have to make my own outfeed roller stand. Local stuff available is tai chi junk and i dont want to fight it tipping over. For this my own buddgie poo welding ground down will be more than adequate. In a case like this i dont wish to impose on a local shop as i understand the economics of a shop and dont want charity from a small business that cannot afford to be doing it.

I do wish we had a welding forum. :( I go back to Darrens words about trusting the people you have come to know for advice. One forum is all i can spare time for. Even mediocre advice here is better than internet wild cards.
 
i have done a fair amount of welding as well.. but i think stu has given you good advice take a class to see if your really wanting to go this route and say that scott is on track for the outsourcing,, around here you can get alot of welding done for a fair price.. even though you have the welder and the gear,, you still havnt had the experience,, there is more to it than having the equipment,
 
Stu said it very well. I would change the 6010 rods for 6013. 6010 is more for pipeline welding, and 6013 is a good general purpose rod.

Yes you are correct, I learned on 6010s way back that was all they had on hand at school, BTW our welding teacher used to make us try to strike an arc with a piece of coat hanger, talk about almost impossible, really made you appreciate welding rods :D
 
OK, guys. Not a lot of positive encouragement. But I do understand what you are trying to tell me.

However.

I want to learn this for the same reasons Rob outlined. There are things I wouldn't want to bother a professional shop with. I will look around and see if some training is available though I would rather find a mentor and learn one-on-one.

I can also envision fabricating something, tacking it together so I know it works and then outsourcing the 'real' welding.

I am smart enough to know when to outsource, even if it has to be @ $90 per hour.

As for the equipment... Guys, they're tools. Who avoids acquiring more tools?

And Scott, my friend. Nothing irritates me further than the inequity between men and women in the marketplace. I am no longer married. I hate businesses that assume I have to bring in hubby before they will deal with me or ask hubby for advise, or any of that sort of thing. Not only will I boycott them, I will write a letter to highest up in the organization relating my experience and inform them of my boycott and intention to tell the world of my experience. And then I do. You will not be surprised to learn how quickly the boss moves to rectify things.

Pit bull, indeed.
 
Pitbull indeed and i think of myself as a bulldog. Both dont like letting go when they get the bit between the teeth.

However, this past weekend the Ambassador said something to me that left a lasting impression and has given me food for thought coming from him, given I hold him in high esteem. There is also no point in having friends provide meaningful advise and then constantly turning away from it, in my view. I used to do that with my Dad and could have done a lot better had i listened more back then.

Larry made the point to me i think is worth digesting and that is there was a time when we were all younger when we could try to be Mr/Ms Fix it for everything. But given i personally find things somehow seem to take way longer than they used to as we age, and its taking way longer to learn new things than it used to, one has to pick ones desires of where to spend time or not.

Now i aint saying dont get a welder etc. On the contrary i think entirely like you do. But i am after the input giving some thought to just how many hours there are in a day and how many diverse things i want to tackle. Just because i can either afford it or believe i can learn it dont mean i have to. Its taken me this long in life to realize my curiosity knows no bounds and my self reliance has to have some limits.

Some have mentioned words which easily get glossed over and that is having the tools is one thing but doing something effective with them is another.

NOW if we get to Jonathans place next year we got access to a welding teacher ;):D:thumb: So burning woods could surely have a welding seminar thrown in the fire NO?
 
One caution on MIG in general vs the other types is that its real easy to get a good looking weld that isn't. Especially with the lower power machines on anything with any thickness at all where you have to be careful to get good penetration into the metal. If you start making some beads and cutting them in half its pretty educational as far as what makes a "good" weld. You can have some real ugly looking welds that are "good" (that is strong, fully penetrated, not over burnt) and some real pretty beads that are just sitting on the surface and not doing much of anything to hold the material together. Its obviously still possible to have this problem with stick ot TIG welding but by the nature of how they work they tend to generally be somewhat more reliably good welds if they work at all.

This is why I don't have a problem welding up some small shop frame or stand or similar but am hesitant to do anything risky.

Its actually easier for a beginner (in my experience) to get good penetration in thicker stuff with FCAW vs GMAW but FCAW tends to splatter a lot and doesn't make as pretty of welds so you get more grinder practice :D. The GMAW will be probably the easiest for sheet metal type material.

I'm not really sure what you anticipate needing to fix on that little tractor? If its mostly sheet metal, then a MIG (or as Stu pointed out more accurately GMAW that you can convert back to FCAW) is probably the best. If you're needing to do anything over say 1/4" I'd argue that that welder you linked to is on the light side. Not saying it can't be done, just that its going to be real hard to get a "good" weld.

Minimally in addition to the welder you'll want (I don't claim this list is conclusive :D):
  • a decent grinder with a variety of attachments.
    • cuttoff wheels (10 pack)
    • grinding disks (10 pack)
    • 2-3 grits of flap sanding disks
  • A good autodarkening helmet. Don't bother with a non autodarkening one nowadays they are soooo much nicer
  • A couple pairs of welding gloves (because you know you'll burn one right when you need it). These also double as the best oven mits ever (harbour freight)
  • A welding smock.
  • A chip hammer for knocking off slag
  • A number of clamps, again depending on what you want to weld this will vary - I have a 6 pack of essentially deep throated vice grips and a couple of angle clamps but you can get $200-300 in here fast it seems (shop estate/garage sales!!).
  • A welding cart to haul all of this crap (this is a nice first project :D although I got a bundle deal with my welder where it was included as part of a sale)
  • A couple of welding blankets to shield nearby parts from splatter (very useful for stick and FCAW)
  • If you go MIG budget in gas bottles and accessories for that
  • Budget in stocking a couple types of wire depending on what you need to do
  • A table would be nice, but not totally neccesary depending on what you're doing. Again this is a good practice project.

Probably missing a few items. Its probably worth pricing at least the majority of that out and figuring odds on what you'll need to fix vs the cost of fixing vs the cost of downtime. There is also the non-qualitative "I fixed it myself" benefit, which I suspect weighs in with you about as strong as it does with me :D
 
Rob, please don't get the idea that I do not appreciate the advice here or that I will ignore it. Not true. I am considering the reasons for what is offered. If they make sense to me then my decision will be impacted. I haven't totally decided to do this yet. I am considering my options. My piggy bank is not limitless.

One of the reasons I am considering this is that as a female, when I come up with an idea out of the norm, it is usually shot down by the male of the species for lack of creativity on their part. I don't want that limit on my creativity. Can't tell you how any times I have come up with something and need help to create it, and the help is not forthcoming, even at a price, because my idea is judged on someone else's merit.

And to set something straight. If it is a tractor repair that requires strength, it goes to Bert (the $90 guy). If it is a fabrication of my own whim, I might want to try it myself. Haven't decided yet.

But I just ordered plans for a micro backhoe. Heheheheheh
 
well as vaughn mentioned scott,, you have just walked into the junk yard where there is one mean and very tough ole watch dog.. this little lady has done more than many here and doesnt take a back seat to anyone!! but she is as sweet as honey as long as things are aligned in the stars :)
 
Carol, that 140 will do probably 3/16" plate in one pass, it's a 35% duty cycle, so for every 10 minutes you'd be able to weld about 3.5 minutes, then allow the welder to cool or it will throw the thermal breaker on itself. It will do the job of thicker steal, but you'll need to do multiple passes with good penetration. I know you're not in a hurry and wanting to learn, so should be a good welder for the money. If you had 220 I'd personally step up to it with a 180 like Brent got, but I've been happy and been able to do everything with my 135 (110v) that I need to do, the 180 would just do it faster.

Enjoy learning it. :wave:

Edit: BTW...I'd avoid the flux core and get the gauge and a bottle of c25 shielding gas, much easier and cleaner to work with. I keep a good named brand grinder around for the majority of my grinding. I have a couple of HF grinders with their brand of cutting wheels on them to do most of my cutting. Also have the HF abrasive saw for cutting, which I can mount to my miter stand to support long pieces and have a stop block on for consistent lengths. I'd probably recommend a saw more like the one Stu got recently though over the HF, but got it on sale.
 
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Carol, I think you should get a welder, you will find it useful, but I think if you took a class then you could really understand which machine suits you.

If I had to make a suggestion off the cuff, then I'd say you would not go wrong with a 220V GMAW that is a MIG welder with a gas bottle.

I like Hobart, I have a Hobart Handler 175, the current version of that is the HH 190 the dual voltage unit is the HH 210.

I've never regretted buying this welder, I've burned up miles and miles of wire in it and it has been great, it has earned it's keep in my workshop.

Cheers!
 
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