Kitchen Knives

[Leo Voisine]

Driving me nuts

I have a ?nice? Santoku knife. It's a Henkels. I am pretty sure the steel is 440 SS. The best you can get a 400 series SS is 55-59 Rc

Once while I was in NYC soho district I bought a meat cleaver.

Just about every time I use my Henkles knife I need to resharpen it. I get a really nice edge on it, but it does not retain it's nice sharp edge.

I have worked with steels all my life and I know a little about steels. I am not a metallurgist by any means.

Looking into knives and steels used I am finding that some of the really good knives are made with Japanese VG-10 steel which hardens to Rc 62 +/- 2
That is like D2 steel - really hard. Sharpening is an issue

With hardness come brittleness. It's a give and take.

My chinese meat cleaver is not stainless, but is a high carbon steel - it is very very very sharp and holds its edge

I am going to give this one a try

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09PVB1HYR/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ADNRKQ2ALK0R6&psc=1

 

[Mike Stafford]

I have been using Dahlstrong knives for quite a few years. They are really excellent. I don't have a complete set but I have the Nakiri, Santoku and Chef knives. I love my Nakiri. You can spend more but I think these knives are great. If you have ever tried to cube fresh pork into small pieces you know what a tedious job that can be. These knives will slice it effortlessly. They are a little heavy but I think the weight makes the job easier. I am pretty sure they are high carbon steel.

I sharpen them after each use with a small ceramic sharpener and put them into their plastic sleeves so they don't bang against each other in the knife drawer. I sharpen them once or twice each year with my Worksharp sharpener to re-establish the bevel. When I sharpen the knives on the Worksharp I usually go all the way to 2500 grit. You can shave with these knives if you keep them touched up.

This is the sharpener I use for touch up and after use sharpening. It works like a charm. I must have half a dozen of them in the knife drawer. It has a coarse V with carbide blades and ceramic rods for fine sharpening. I don't use the carbide Vee very often.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

I have a very nice VG-10 knife I got as a work spiff (team building cooking class.. it was pretty cool..). I like it a lot but it's kind of a "special use" knife for me still.

The one I have is basically this one:

Shigeki Tanaka 33-Layer VG10 Damascus KYOKKO Japanese Chef's Kengata-Gyuto Knife 180mm

The Shigeki Tanaka KYOKKO ("Aurora") series feature 33 Layered Damascus blade with a core of VG-10 stainless steel for professional with a hardness of 60-61 HRC, which provides excellent rust resistance and a long-lasting edge as well as its beautifulness."KYOKKO" is a word of good omen, the...

www.hocho-knife.com

It wasn't terrible to sharpen but definitely liked water stones more than oil and likes to go pretty fine (the sigma II 13k followed by honing compound on wood or leather works nicely.. the nice arkansas translucent struggled a bit with it and I didn't like the "feel" of the edge from that). I mostly just hone it lightly with a strop with compound unless I oops the edge somehow. I've also got it at a super fine/narrow edge which is good/bad depending...

The boss has smaller hands and bought one of the Misen utility knives on a recommendation from a friend who's a retired pro-chef (the utility is basically a "small chefs knife") and we later picked up one of their full sized chef's knives. I'm not entirely in love with the square handle and I used a stone to lightly break the edges on the back of the blade to make it a wee bit more comfortable for a pinch grip.. but for holding and edge and ease of sharpening they're bangers and the price isn't crazy. These are at Rc 58º with AUS10 steel which is imho very comparable to VG10 composition wise, the edge off of the arkansas or spyderco fine stones with these knives is very acceptable and a bit faster that the VG10 I have.

Misen Knives

The best cooking knives, for every kitchen A great knife makes all the difference in the kitchen. It’s what helps you breeze through chopping and dicing ingredients, instead of struggling through each slice with a dull, low-quality blade. We know that a great knife that stays sharp for a long...

misen.com

Granted I'm comparing one VG10 knife to some slightly less aggressively hardened AUS10 knives so YMMV in that regard (and looking forward to the review). I think the trade off of the Misen being a bit less hard for more toughness was very reasonable for an all purpose knife. It would be interesting to compare to a less aggressive VG10.

Both are vastly better than our old Wustoff which is probably comparable to your Henkles spec wise. I also find 440C "gummy" feeling when sharpening it and neither of these seem to have that characteristic and come off of the stones feeling "crisper". I don't think that's just the hardness but some combination of steel mix and hardness (54/55rc high carbon 1095 or similar feels cleaner to me when sharpening as well...)

Any of the steels in this class can still be subject to some corrosion especially from high sulfur foods like garlic or onion so I do try to wash and dry right after use still. VG10 can be especially susceptible to pit corrosion (galvanic action basically) so keeping it fairly well polished is recommended.

 

[Leo Voisine]

There js certainly a cake mix when it comes to the ingredients in the different steels. I do understand some of it.

Interesting that you guys have and like the VG10 knives. I am excited to try it.

I have 1000 , 2500 and 6000 water stones and I use them. I am pretty good at hand sharpening. I sharpen most of my tools, chisels, planes, etc.

Yeah - I think the Wustoff and Henkels are going to be similar

I do treat my knives with very special care

 

[Don Baer]

Not all Henckel knives are the same. If you look at the blade you'll see either one or two men on the logo. The "One-Man" blades are thinner stock and made in Brazil and Spain. The "Two-Man" are thicker stock and made in Germany. Just an FYI

 

[Leo Voisine]

Don, I am not knocking Henkles.
I have used Henkles for many years.
I actually like the thinner knives.

They just don't "do it" for me.
They get very sharp and they cut really nicely
The steel used is good stuff.
They are low on edge retention.
If you don't mind sharpening them a lot - no problem.

It's all about the steel.

 

[Don Baer]

It's all about the steel.

That was my point Leo, the ones made in Germany are a better grade of steel than the ones made in Spain and Brazil. They are much better at holding their edge.

 

[Toni Ciuraneta]

I do like sharp knives and sharp tools, and despite all that the sales guy at a specialised shop may tell me, such as stainles steel used on knives nowadays can be sharpened like a high carbon steel ones and hold the edge just as well, my experience is that is not exactly right. Yes they can be sharpened and get a good edge, but it doesn’t last, and it is not as sharp as a carbon steel one, before those new steels you didn’t get any edge so that’s why they made them with saw teeth. If it was so good why they don’t make carving gouges, plane blades or carving knives out of it?

BTW. A famous chef got a complaint from a customer that said that his steak was too hard, the chef inmediately had all the knives of the restaurant sharpened. LOL

 

[Frank Fusco]

Despite getting knocks from a lot of people, I have always liked the early Chicago Cutlery knives. High carbon steel, take and hold an edge well. The newer ones (stainless ?) are hard to sharpen and do not hold the edge well.


Edit. Forgot to mention, I also have a large Sabtier chefs knife, a large old butcher knife of unknown maker. Great knives both.

 

[Don Baer]

Not trying to beat this to death but the German Henkle knives, the ones with the two guys on the blade ( ) ere labeled Zwilling J.A. Henckels and are 4-5 time the cost of the plain ole Henkle knives made in Spain and Brazil. Somethings never change you get what you pay for.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

One other note on the Wustoff/Henckles is I ended up pushing the edge angle up a bit and that's helped it hold longer. It's not as "keen" of an edge, but still plenty sharp and the problem I mostly had was with it rolling a tad in use. And yes steeling it pulls that back but a few times and it starts to pull away so.. it's not forever.. With a slight wider angle pulling it back was more apt to work harden the edge enough it stayed before it started pulling away.

As with most things steel selection is a bunch of tradeoffs and consider that:

1. Most people can't sharpen their tools (knives included) very well, present company excepted
2. People are not good at taking care of their tools so corrosion resistance starts to matter more
3. There is a certain amount of "good enough" that lands a lot of the time

and the stainless products start to make some more sense. As for using it tools, I would argue that it's more expensive (last time anyone spent $200 on a chisel here? yeah there are some.. but still..), and tool people are .. well.. better with tools haha.. so we would prioritize some of the other characteristics more.

So yeah different strokes for different reasons.

On that note I've really disliked the couple of A2 plane blades I've gotten for the most part, which *kind of* land in the corrosion resistant steel territory (high chromium at least...). They're difficult/unpleasant feeling to sharpen (compared to O1 or whatever ancient steel is in my old stanley's) and while it holds a mediocre edge really well, it doesn't really hold a super fine edge any better imho. YMMV depending on sharpening routine, tools, etc..

Pfeil is reportedly 52100 with some extra carbon (52100 is a bearing steel also used by KharkivForge and a bunch of other axe/timber tool makers.. it's really tough, the extra carbon would allow the Pfeil to take a slightly finer edge). It's nominally well into "corrosion resistant" and indeed they do resist corrosion better than some of my other chisels... so IDK it's a gradient not a line.

A lot of old Henkles were carbon steel which was undoubtedly good. The new german ones are a "proprietary" high carbon stainless, probably X50Cr15MoV for their "regular" knives, or a variant thereof... https://knifeuser.com/x50crmov15-steel-review/ but at only 0.55% carbon, it's going to be what it is even with the best heat treatment (the vanadium undoubtedly helps but carbon, king carbon haha). They also definitely use SG2 (https://knifeup.com/what-is-sg2-steel/) and 13c26 (https://knifebasics.com/detailed-sandvik-13c26-steel-review/) and "FC63" (which looks to be another variant of 13c26.. probably..) for some of their products so even there a lot of variation.

I've had some really good brazilian knives so I'm not going to knock those for value. We found some paring knives in a hardware store going out of business sale for $1/ea so I bought a dozen for fishing gear kits, around the shop, and a couple even made it into the kitchen. Not fancily made but easy to sharpen, holds an edge really well, and overall just really decent little knives. The other cheap knife I really like is I got LOML an Opinel No.08 Carbon Steel knife for garden work and for $15 it's a banger. She did knock the tip off but it was a bit pointy for garden work anyway and took 5m to fix.

 

[Vaughn McMillan]

Despite getting knocks from a lot of people, I have always liked the early Chicago Cutlery knives. High carbon steel, take and hold an edge well. The newer ones (stainless ?) are hard to sharpen and do not hold the edge well.

I agree. When I was growing up the Chicago Cutlery knives were my dad's best kitchen knives. He kept them very sharp, and us kids were taught how to properly care for them. (Wash and dry immediately after use.) Years later he started buying more expensive brands, but several of those Chicago Cutlery knives were still his daily drivers. I ended up inheriting a few paring knives from him, and they are my go-to steak knives.

 

[Mike Stafford]

Despite getting knocks from a lot of people, I have always liked the early Chicago Cutlery knives. High carbon steel, take and hold an edge well. The newer ones (stainless ?) are hard to sharpen and do not hold the edge well.

We have a set o Chicago cutlery that has been in use at our house for over 40 years. My wife prefers them over the knives that I bought myself to use. As I said I like the heft and sharpness of the Dahlstrong knives I have. I sharpen my wife's knives with the Workfast sharpener. I used to use waterstones but after I got the Workfast I got lazy. I can sharpen all of our knives in a very short time with that machine.

By the way, Dahlstrong knives are made in Canada from Japanese steel.

 

[Leo Voisine]

It is all about the steels and the applications.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of them, Spainish, Austrailian, English, American, German, Chinese, Japanese or any other nation on earth.

It is about the chemestry of the steel used to make the knife. Germans use a little different chemestry than Americans use. That does not mean one is better than the other, but there are some minute differences. A knife made by Cutco out of 440c American stainless steel is going to be VERY VERY similar to a Henckles stainless steel knife. Both knives are fantastic knives and serve the same purpose in the kitchen and work in a very similar way at about the same price point.

In the same way, a high carbon steel (NOT stainless steel) made in the USA and a comparible grade high carbon steel made in Japan (not ss) is going to be similar and react the same in the kitchen.

Here is a link that talks a little about steels used in knives.

An overview of the different steel types for kitchen knives

In this article we will explain about the different steel types that are used for kicthen knives.

www.knivesandtools.com

Of course, we cannot compare a knife at a cost point of $500 to a knife at a cost point of $50

A knife make of high carbon steel at a cost point of $100 give or take $50 - is not going to be a good knife for some people - but is the best choice for others.

I was just pointing out that for my preferences, what I am looking for.

In a similar manner - CHISELS
I have a decent collection of chisels, Some are cheap cheap, open the paint can sort of chisels. I have somme nice Lee Valley A2 chisels and some HSS Wood River chisels. I also have a Ray Iles D2 Chisel. All sharpen differently, all perform differently.

Ryan mentioned 52100 steel - I do NOT want a knife made out for that steel - sure it would be sharp and keep an edge, but drop it on the tile floor and watch is shatter to pieces.

I am not belittling ANY of them - all are good for their intended purpose

It is all about personal preference in what a person desires in a knife.

 

[David Johnson]

Rada cutlery seem to do a very good job for little money. They maintain a good edge and have a knife for ever purpose. Also you can support the local charity that uses them as afund raiser. Our knives are all over the board and wife loves them all just cause they are hers.
David

 

[Chuck Ellis]

I don't know one knife brand from another... our knives are a set my wife bought... they're black handled and had black blades... seem to hold an edge pretty well. I keep them on a magnet bar on the wall above the kitchen counter... they work, no need to look for anything else (I'm cheap and don't buy something new just because....)

My grandmother on mom's side had a set of knives and forks that had the old type steel with wooden handles .... she took one of the case knives that went with the forks and sharpened it to use as a paring knife... she'd sharpened it on the rim of her milk crock to the point that it was narrowed in the middle.... it was sharp enough that once when she was washing dishes, it got dropped in the bottom of the dishpan and when she reached in to get the silverware out, she cut the end of her little finger off.

 

[David Johnson]

Has anyone tried the ceramic knives I've seen in some stores? I have heard they are sharp and stay that way
David

 

[Ryan Mooney]

Has anyone tried the ceramic knives I've seen in some stores? I have heard they are sharp and stay that way

I've never owned any (to much of a klutz and 90% odds of breaking it..), but I've had friends with some. I tried them a few times when we were over visiting, they were "fine" I suppose. I found them kind of weirdly light but they worked well enough. At the time they were kind of a premium priced product as well, still are for the nicer ones I guess (Kyocera for example) but not outside of a decent chefs knife otherwise now.

They don't stay indefinitely sharp and are prone to chipping if you're not careful and can break if you put much lateral force on them. You can't use them reliably for rougher work like boning a chicken or smushing garlic if you're used to doing that with the side of your knife (it's perfectly safe if done right, and a great way to loose a great flap of skin if done wrong so I'm not recommending it.. just noting.. hah). The edge suffers on harder surfaces, maybe not quite as fast or the same as a steel blade but still, glass cutting boards are still a terrible idea (unless you're using it for mulling paint pigments then go for it but keep my knives of all sorts away from them).

They do stay sharp a fair bit longer than most steel knives in "general" use. You can sharpen them with a fine diamond hone/stone if you're careful. Some of the cheaper ones benefit from that out of the box (back to "helping out" folks "what do you have to loose..", it worked fine with a 600g diamond, I haven't had a chance to try any graded diamond paste but that could be fun) . My Tanaka Vg10 is/was a fair bit sharper than any of my friends ceramic knives that had much use and our Misen is certainly well into competitive with a light hone, as are my various high carbon & butcher knives; but I do spend a wee bit of effort keeping mine that way.

Someone who is less diligent on sharpening and does mostly light vegetable cutting and boneless meat work might like them quite well. I'd probably still spring for one of the better ones if you're expecting a clean tomato slicer...

she'd sharpened it on the rim of her milk crock to the point that it was narrowed in the middle

Heh, a buddy had bought a fancy sharpening system and had honed up one of his pocket knives on it. He hadn't fully pulled the burr of though so it was "sharp" but not "SHARP". I flipped my coffee cup over and finished honing it on the raw ceramic edge and then floated some hair off of my arm (which it could definitely and demonstratively NOT have done before). The look on his face I fairness he'd done a lot of the work but just didn't quite know how to finish polishing the edge.

 

[Ryan Mooney]

Ryan mentioned 52100 steel - I do NOT want a knife made out for that steel - sure it would be sharp and keep an edge, but drop it on the tile floor and watch is shatter to pieces.

I think you're being unfair to 52100, here's a destructive test with a blade at super high 66RC chopping a concrete nail in half, it chipped at a super fine edge but survived with a very minor chip at a more normal grind.

I mean sure if you shove it in a vise and bend it 90 degreees...

 

[glenn bradley]

Just adding additional data to the thread. The Henkles Santoku gets grabbed more than others since it is "always" sharp. I do steel knives for a swipe or four before each use and have to give them a sharpening session a couple times a year.